Burglaries: Give it up?

Well to each his own. Again you know that they’re coming after you because you’ve made your presence known and they still are kicking in your door. If someone walks into a gas station with a gun and says give me the money you can be pretty sure they are there for the money.

The statistics don’t have to just apply to those who resist since it encompasses everyone who got seriously hurt as defined by the bureau of justice statistics and that entire number is only 6%. So it’s actually a number in your favor because the actual number of people who get hurt complying is a small subset of that number. So I haven’t heard a challenge to the statistics yet which have been satisfying. Another member pointed to the chances of a school shooting happening as being very low as well however I didn’t think the analogy held since in that instance they’re primarily after your life not your stuff. I understand you’re talking a chance by putting your life in the hands of someone like that but I’ll take my odds if it’s say a gas station robbery that they’re not willing to take my life if I give full compliance. Because I know that I’m going to get involved in a gun fight otherwise and at that point the best odds I think anyone can give you is 70% of not getting seriously hurt.

is that the same thing as a gun violence restraining order

An “extreme risk protective order”, also known as an ERPO or Red Flag warrant is relatively new concept like protective orders in domestic violence cases but there does not need to be any specific actions, threats or injuries. They can be requested by police, relatives, friends or neighbors who believe a person is a threat to themselves or others.

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You’ll have to define your scenario much more clearly. Are they robbing the gas station? If so, an I am employee of the station or am I a bystander? Or are they robbing me while I just happen to be at a gas station? If I’m the target, does it matter that I’m at a gas station? If I’m just a bystander,has he shifted his attention away from the clerk and on to me, or am I reacting on behalf of the clerk without a direct threat to myself? Is he acting in a “businesslike” manner (for lack of a better term), or is he agitated and twitchy, screaming obscenities and threatening to shoot the clerk and/or everyone else? How many other people are present? Does he have a partner or two out in the lot?

It’s impossible to prescribe a course of action without knowing all the details.

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One like this. I love how the idiot robbers always put the gun away to take the money. They’re so greedy that their greed ends up literally killing them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN3-SDv6Ej4
where the suspect is business like and laser focused on the money.

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I think we have a fundamental misunderstanding between you the sheep and we the sheepdogs You are looking for a “reason” that the bag guy is doing what he/she is doing so that you can reason your way to a non violent solution. OK fine, if that is the avenue you wish to pursue I’m good with that. On the other side of the coin are those that are aware that evil exists and we are willing to meet it head on within the laws and guidance of man. I personally don’t subscribe to your theory that they just want my “stuff” if they come after ME to get my stuff it means they want a piece of me or mine to get to my stuff. At that point the logic is clear the die is cast and the cards will fall where they may.

I almost get the impression that you are baiting the respondents who have been to this point very respectful of your opinion to make a bold statement for use of force in all cases or in a premeditated way.

I’m beginning to get the strong smell of …




No, I do not call BS for someone disagreeing with me but I have watched your behavior from afar and have an impression. I have had multiple differences of opinion on this forum and have had no ill effects other than a constructive conversation of differing opinions. I offered you the same.

I will not debate you further and caution the members of this board to hold their reply’s to germane facts and to not be induced into emotional responses that may reflect poorly in a court room.

@Dawn and @Zee I think your divine presence may be required here.




My “Behavior”. Still waiting for examples there buddy. You never debated me, you attacked me personally out of nowhere. Called me a sheep who doesn’t understand how the world works. Now you’re accusing me of inducing members into emotional responses. Are you alright? I am genuinely concerned for your health. Stop making accusations without evidence. You’re triggered because I have stats to back up an opinion that contradicts one you held dear, that’s what’s going on.

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Your commentary is noted. I thank you for the concern of my health I have just concluded a very nice Thanksgiving with family and friends. This evening I spent a wonderful night at the Virginia Symphony with my bride of 29.5 years watching Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban where they played all the musical pieces in time with the movie along with subtitles. It was an enjoyably pleasant evening thank you for your concern but I am fine and wish you well




In the words of Reagan

There you go again!

It takes a special kind of guy to accuse you, drag your reputation through the mud without any evidence, and then tell you all about his wonderful night! Welcome to the internet


Alright y’all just settle down. There is room in here for civil exploitation of the various scenarios but once you guys heat up, it gets personal.

Respectful conversation, including not characterizing each others motivations, is expected across the board. Y’all can do it, I’ve seen you. Deep breath, chill out, be kind.

And dont make me pull this thread over… :face_with_raised_eyebrow:


Rules were broken by one person. When moderators don’t enforce rules ^ we no longer have a community, and there is no fairness. Members have to resort to breaking the rules themselves in order to defend themselves. Not right.When there is a violation of terms action should be taken swiftly and decisively to make whole again. Why does one unstable member get to turn a nice intellectual discussion into a personal attack and have moderators come in and clean up his mess by admonishing everyone and threatening to shut the thread down. It’s a false equivalency.

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I followed this for awhile dwelling on it. While I dont think I could just give my wallet up to an armed robber based on statistics of him or her shooting or not. I’m going to do my best to defend myself. Also, this is a reason for condition yellow, to hopefully avoid this type of encounter. Each one if us have to live with the choices we make. If that is your choice, so be it.


A couple of thoughts on content here… although I’ll have to go back and read more carefully for details.

@MikeBKY, yep, the guys kicking down the door could be the SWAT team serving a no-knock warrant on a red flag. And its highly likely some will be shot, or at the very least shot at, if they are not announcing themselves. And then the homeowner gets shot too… its already happened with casualties on both sides. Part of why I think these laws are so dangerous.

On shooting through the door and similar scenarios… super important to know your state laws… it may or may not be murder in the legal sense… depends on your state. Aside from the individual choices we each have to make about what risks we take, and when we act, this is a matter of local law.

Add to that the competing risks of shooting an innocent through the door because you misunderstand what is happening on the other side of it, and losing time advantage because you waited until they had kicked the door in… well I think there are very few “absolute right” choices.

I can think of half a dozen scenarios where shooting through the door would be a perfectly right choice… and another half a dozen where it would be terrifically wrong… and it’s well after midnight here and the coffee has already worn off.

Perhaps a more useful strategy here would be to take a careful look at the respective state laws, and to consider from there first… after all, self defense includes not just the incident but what happens to you after. It’s no good to survive the first, and not the second.


So let me get this right, it’s totally okay to name call members and moderators including yourself, and break the terms of service, And make accusations about you, and demean you, and you would respond exactly as you did here today. “Settle down kids”. You wouldn’t ban someone for insulting you would you Zee? Of course you would! You’d do it every time and twice on sunday! You’re a moderator, so it’s not okay to insult you. But hey, someone’s just a member. Who cares! They can’t do anything about it.

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Here, they have be through the threshold

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Could we get a moderator here who’s actually willing to enforce the Terms of Agreement? Is there another moderator willing to follow the rules? Who understands that when you pretend like both parties are at fault it creates unresolved issues @Dawn

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Because its almost one in the morning here, and I have to be on the road at 7 am for the 12 hour commute frome home to work. At this time of night, I do not have another hour to weed through and sort individual details and address them.

Because I expect that in every situation all players are bringing something to the table. And everyone gets to participate in making it better or worse.

Closing this thread for now, @Dawn can reopen it in the morning after everyone has had a good nights sleep.

Y’all have a peaceful night.


Just to be clear, I am a volunteer moderator and do not have the power to delete comments or edit posts by other people. I have tagged @Dawn and I’m sure she will have a look in the morning and sort out what need sorting.

@CriticalThinky, @Zee is a volunteer moderator and was kind in her response to everyone here.

@CriticalThinky, it is both sides who are at fault here. I’ve read through the entire thread and neither side as toed the line 100% - and that’s where Zee stepped in to remind everyone of theCommunity Guidelines.

No one has called you a name… the tone was going that way on both sides of the discussion when Zee politely and kindly requested for everyone to take a step back before posting again so that we all get back to the purpose of this forum - learning and sharing about how to be the best protectors for ourselves and our loved ones.

Your personal attack on Zee is out of line. She is here to help. Personal attacks on a volunteer moderator will NOT be tolerated!

Personal attacks on volunteer moderators will result in a ban.

It isn’t wasn’t in the Community Guidelines until this morning, but due to this situation, I have added it. You can disagree with a moderator or Community Manager all you like, as long as we’re discussing the topic, not personal attacks, and is respectful.

The only person who has the authority to ban anyone is the Community Manager.