[Breaking News] ATF Deems Q Honey Badger "Pistol" as an "SBR" (update 10/27/2020)

Legal & Second Amendment
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The ATF has decided that Q’s “Honey Badger”, “Sugar Weasel”, and “Mini Fix” pistol with stabilizing brace is actually a short-barreled rifle and therefore subject to the National Firearms Act (NFA).

Apparently, ATF notified Q back in August that they have changed their designation of the Honey Badger with a pistol brace as a “pistol” and is now considered a short-barrelled rifle. Q has submitted paperwork disagreeing with the decision, but has not yet heard back from the ATF and just today sent out a letter to registered Q owners. (see TTAG article for full text).

Snippet from the ATF letter, emphasis mine:

The Honey Badger Pistol is equipped with a proprietary “pistol stabilizing brace” accessory made by SB Tactical. The firearm has an overall length of approximately 20-25 inches and a barrel length of approximately 7 inches. The objective design features of the Honey Badger firearm, configured with the subject stabilizing brace, indicate the firearm is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder.

Why is this important?

This immediately makes every owner of one of the 3 models in violation of the NFA and subject to years in prison and thousands of dollars in fines unless they take steps.

This makes previously purchased property now illegal, now subject to $200 tax and much paperwork if you’d like to keep it. The precedent was set when the ruling on bumpstocks was arbitrarily changed by the ATF from legal to not-legal and very little fuss was made because no one really cared about bumpstocks.

There are millions upon millions of pistols using pistol braces in the wild. We are a stroke of a pen away from being all labeled felons.

Should we have seen this coming?

Yes. Everyone who said “I don’t care about bumpstocks, you can go ahead and ban them” you should now see the error in allowing the ATF to arbitrarily change their mind and with the stroke of a pen make you either destroy your property or become a felon.

Is it all bad?

Well. For now… they are confining this decision to only the 3 models from Q. This is probably thousands of gun owners (the Honey Badger is very expensive). So that’s the good news. The bad news is this is a short hop, skip, and jump to say everyone with a pistol brace is now subject to the NFA. We do not know if the ATF has sent letters to other manufacturers that we just haven’t heard about yet.

What can we do?

The NRA and FPC links below have “one-click” messages you can send to the ATF, Senate, and Pres. Trump. I don’t know the effect that will have, and if that is the right people to reach out to. Stay tuned to messages from the big players soon like GOA, NRA, SAF, FPC, etc to find out next steps.

Link to ATF Letter:

Articles:

https://www.firearmspolicy.org/reverse-atf-arbitrary-action-honey-badger-pistol

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I just recently bought a AR pistol and have been investigating the can and cannot of owning one. I am watching this closely as this could have a trickle effect where it comes after all pistol owners with braces equipped. I am thinking to be on the safe side of things that I should strongly consider a Tax stamp for an SBR. I hate to spend the money. However, fine, jail time, and a felony don’t sit well with me.

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Many of us are in the same boat. There are millions of AR pistols, not to mention AK pistols, a wide variety of PCC pistols, even those conversion kits like the Micro Roni for Glocks. There has always been a risk of the ATF re-classifying things, but now with the bumpstock precedent it feels like this was inevitable.

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Some of you will remember my conversation about the new AR pistols a while back. Originally you could not have anything attached to the AR pistol to make it shoulder fired.

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So surely, if you remove the brace and wear a padded jacket how would that not be legal? All the other parts are interchangeable with legal pistols. I don’t see how a LAW can be used in any arbitrary manner. I feel they should be sued. You cannot have LAWs that rely on non elected officials opinion as to whether you pass or fail!

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More updates.

Colion Noir got two really good interviews with Q and SB Tactical

Commentary from a few good Youtubers (I’m sure there will be more)…

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One more by Mr GunsNGear

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Shouldnt the owners of these be grandfathered in? The ATF loves to make stuff up and these braces have been a issue since they were first created. The line on what you can and cannot do with a brace is so fine its impossible NOT to break the law.

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Indeed, and they violated the Constitution in the process. Not the Second Amendment, but the fact that only the Legislative Branch can legislate, and the ruling altered the law and redefined the word Machinegun.

A bumpstock does NOT alter the operation of a semi-automatic firearm, it simply increases the rate of fire, but still requires a trigger pull and reset for EACH shot.

Similar to the recent ruling on the 1964 Civil Rights Act, the word ‘sex’ when used, as used, and the understanding of it’s meaning at the time, was male and female, not gender identity or sexual orientation. The court (and shamefully Gorsuch sided with the left on this), redefined the word and altered the law…
If they wanted to add sexual orientation and gender identity, that should have been done IN the Legislative Branch, not in the court which has no authority to amend the Constitution or legislate.

If the bump stock decision is allowed to stand, it opens the door to redefine many things in laws… just as the precedent of the court ruling a change to the meaning of a word in a law.

Can you imagine the redefinition of the word Freedom or the word Arms, or the word Religion.

Personally, I think these types of pistols are absurd, as they are not actually handguns, but I think the bump stock is absurd and a waste of ammo, but we MUST adhere to the Constitution, the laws passed under the authority of the Constitution and within the bounds of it, and in pursuance thereof, and we must adhere to the Rule of Law.

Making legal items illegal should be considered an ex post facto and invalid… all those previously owned should remain legal.

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I just don’t understand the motive of the ATF here. It is clear to me (as one of the new wave of owners and shooters) that FOR HOME DEFENCE the AR PISTOL with a laser is the best choice. I have met several much newer folk than myself, particularly women looking to own such a weapon after shooting comparison with a hand gun. Under 6lbs and very little recoil, it hits where the laser points. Why do the ATF want to deny this home defense capability to ordinary people?

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So, is an AR with a 16" barrel and an SB brace a rifle?

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If this were a “law” passed by a legislature, they will usually include a grandfather clause. They don’t HAVE to put that in, but they usually will.

Because this is an ATF ruling, there is no grandfather clause. See the Bumpstock ban for how this will work. Everyone who had a bumpstock was given a grace period to either destroy it, turn it in, or become a felon. There wasn’t even a “buyback”, so if you owned one you were SOL on whatever they cost (I think most were $250-ish).

If this sticks, Q Honey Badger, Sugar Weasel, and Mini Fix owners will get some grace period (months) to determine whether they will SBR it, destroy it, or otherwise change it to a legal configuration.

Check out Mr GunsNGear video above. He says these types of decisions are usually made by very high-level ATF people. This one was made by a field agent. He says maybe why they haven’t responded to numerous requests for info from media outlets is they are trying to figure out who/what/why/how this field agent made this determination in the first place (its above his pay grade) and maybe trying to sort out how to undo the mess.

lol, I literally have no idea what that would be classified as.

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There is another option, though ammo may be difficult at the moment.

the 5.7mm. I checked one out, and it is light, holds 20 rds, and per reviews has low recoil.

It is NOT something that is easy to conceal though it is possible as it is possible to carry concealed a 1911 or Browning Hi-Power.

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While I do not see a benefit to these overly large pistols, I do not see the Constitutional authority to regulate, limit, restrict, or prohibit any arms.

The 1934 National Firearms Act has no basis in the Constitution, there is no authority for government limiting a right in such a manner.

Would we accept a National Religious Act, requiring registration of religion, payment of a ‘tax’, and permits, to attend church?

This will not push Trump supporters away from Trump, as most of his supporters know it is bureaucrats, who are unelected, and power hungry.

Of course, the ATF should be investigated, for this and for the bump stock decision.

The bump stock, which I also see no benefit in, was declared by the ATF to alter a semi-automatic into an automatic, per the definitions of the 1934 NFA… which states;

  • For the purposes of the National Firearms Act the term Machinegun means:

  • Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger*.

Since the bump stock does not alter the operation of a semi-automatic firearm and make it a ‘Machinegun’, it only increases the rate of fire, but still requires a trigger pull and reset for EACH shot fired, the ATF actually violated the law and the Constitution by attempting to redefine the word ‘Machinegun’…

Under the new rules, a semi-auto may be declared a ‘Machinegun’ if the rate of fire exceeds a specific number, which can be arbitrarily determined and altered as needed.

While we might hold President Trump accountable as he is currently the Executive Branch, and all Executive Branch agencies work for him under his direct control, the fact remains that those bureaucrats desirous of power and control, and especially those on the left of the political spectrum that align with Communism and Fascism … Totalitarianism… should be the ones held accountable and removed.

The only possible way they might be removed is if Trump is re-elected (though that it no guarantee), as we do know if Biden is elected, it will be expanded and the rights we have will be ignored by a leftist regime and the bureaucrats will be expanded and given more power without the people having any recourse.

So, I do not think this will have any impact on Trump supporters… most know it is a leftist attack.

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I agree with @Kevin29 I dont think this is an attempt to undermine Trump. If anything it would solidify Trump’s position as this can’t possibly get better under Biden.

I really don’t see this as anything other than some ATF policy-maker(s) being anti-gun and using what tools they have available.

As usual, the only ones who pay the price is regular citizens.

Part of the reason they are so useful is because of all the goofy rules we have in place. Pistols can sometimes go or be carried in a condition that rifles can’t. So even if you were OK with paying a $200 tax stamp and filling out NFA paperwork (and if its even legal in your state to have NFA items) there would still be benefits to having these Pistols.

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I think the ATF is sabotaging Trump’s reputation as to find fault in Trump for their(ATF) own stupidity. ATF should have set the rules before all productions and not change their minds! Such as bump stocks and now recent Pistol and Rifle comparisons on the AR-15’s. ATF is playing the dangerous game! It could backfire on themselves. Lawsuits should come in their way as it should! I have wondered the small differences between pistol AR-15 and the rifle AR-15 should have their distinctive difference and that should have been loud and clear from the ATF. Why they have secrecy and opinionated discussions should be banned and they should have responsibilities! They can be creative but let it slip through is obviously dangerous and they know it! It is a damn shame regardless.

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Just recently on OANN news just mentioned that the White House is taking a look at the ATF sinister situation! Wait and see what would come out of it! Hope Trump will do the right thing!

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Another concern is what about the Springfield Saint Victor’s short barreled AR-15? I’m sure there are others as well? Are they in trouble or not? See SAINT® Edge PDW 5.56 AR-15 Pistol - Springfield Armory
? Legal according to size?

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Have a look at the videos I put in Post #6 & 7 in this thread.

For right now the only target is the products by Q. However, the language seems to open the door for later on making a case for all pistol braces.

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