Dude, I LOVE A&G!
As a regular listener, I’m very familiar with Jack’s story as he has told it several times on the air, especially his frustration with the local political attitudes that help to create and foster such crazies walking our streets. As they call them, the bums and junkies…
While I don’t live in California I have visited San Francisco once or twice a year for business before the pandemic hit. Mainly for conventions downtown. I have seen the craziness that you are referring to and that was with the city trying to keep them away from the convention center. Stepping around people sleeping on sidewalks, changing on the sidewalk, using the bathroom on the sidwalks, babbling incoherently, and so much more. And that was with them trying to curb the transients due to the conventions. I could not imagine how bad it is normally.
Sad that you can get in more trouble for having or using a plastic straw then people using the sidewalks as a bathroom. In San Francisco it got so bad that instead of trying to fix the problem they passed a law making it legal to defecate in public and had to hire a sanitation crew just to clean it up.
From what I hear from a friend in NYC it has gotten pretty bad there as well.
Glad you both are ok and thanks for sharing so we can all learn from it.
Most of the questions that popped up in my mind, you answered as I continued to read the story. Very good write-up.
Like a few others, the thing that popped out to me more than anything else was the police response time.
Excellent on being prepared with communications (even if not perfect, better than most I would say), watching for “hands”, and knowing where the legal boundaries are.
I have a couple questions, if you don’t mind, looking back with 20/20 hindsight. Seeing how it turned out, is there something you would try differently than this time. Not necessarily because this was a bad outcome or the other outcome may necessarily be better. But just something different to try.
Your interaction with the guy was interesting to me. I understand not wanting to look like prey, but in my very limited experience challenging a criminal just makes them have to “prove themselves” and challenging a mentally unbalanced person makes them focus on you more. On the flip side, ignoring them usually leads to the same result. So there is a fine line somewhere between giving “just enough” response to satisfy their interest, but not so interesting they stay around.
Additionally, sometimes on bodycam footage you will hear a police officer giving the same commands over and over again. They get trained to vary their statements a little bit so it doesn’t become rote or a mantra. Did you find yourself repeating the same phrases back and forth?
For your EDC, do you wish you had carried in the normal holster or were you satisfied with the pocket carry? Will this change how often (positive or negative) how often you pocket carry in the future?
Also EDC related… Have you considered carrying something less-lethal? pepper spray or a stungun of some type? Would it have been useful in this scenario here?
I like the pepper spray at the ready idea for the above scenario. If a single assailant, crazed or not, has no weapon in hand, able bodied civilians can’t generally shoot. Below is a widely circulated video, but which is clearly a time to shoot, and again, and again… Wow.
I was wounded in Vietnam. From my experience, it didn’t hurt. It felt like I’d been slapped by a rock. I reached down with my hand to scratch an itch and saw my fingers covered in blood. If you don’t shoot to stop the threat (kill), your assailant may not even realize they’ve been shot. There us no shoot a leg or arm. Stop the threat.
thanks for sharing. my girlfriend and I have a set of code words for possible threat in our proximity . two levels one for mild to mid level possible threat and another unmistakable one for perceived high level threat . although she’s not as trained for situational awareness as I she still does a fairly good job. luckily we’ve only used the first level a couple of times
Just saw this, this morning. A similar situation, though not identical; with a terrible outcome. Your actions and decisions were prevalent in my mind when I saw this. I only watched 8 mins, and heard alot.
Interesting to hear LE perspective and hear what was done wrong articulated. These are things most of us know. The guy thought he knew things he didn’t. Sad but not surprising.
Thank you for sharing that. It was great the way you broke everything down but you kept calm.
Situational awareness and the fact that you stood your ground by not backing up told him you were not prey and that this could end up bad for him. Whether on drugs or booze certain situations bring clarity and a quick sobering up. That may have taken some of the wind out of his sails. Thank God he was only talk this time around. Be blessed.
Excellent questions and great discussion.
Since the incident, I have asked that question repeatedly…“What could I have done differently?” Such as, what if I would have just ignored him? Would he have stepped up his actions for not getting a reaction from me, or would he have stopped? I thought about if I had my flashlight and shined it at him, would that have caused him pause, or agitated him more? One of the other things I thought after the fact was if I started to video him using my phone, what would he have done? It would have been good potentially for evidence in my favor later, but I don’t like the idea of diverting my focus on holding the phone. I still feel like how I reacted was what felt right in my gut at the moment.
I agree that reacting the way I did could have set him off more. However, maybe it was what was needed. I truly believe that there is no single way to respond and that you have to gauge in the moment…OODA loop.
I did find myself calmly and firming repeating the same things. Repeating that he needed to leave and that if he tried to cause us harm, it would not end well for him. Doing that wasn’t necessarily a conscious act, but I did find myself doing it anyways.
I was comfortable with the pocket carry. The cargo shorts they were in fit it well and makes the draw easy. I think I am more comfortable with my regular 4 o’clock IWB carry, but one of the advantages I found in this case with the pocket holster is I was able to have my hand casually in my pocket on my gun. Wouldn’t be able to do that with my normal carry without telegraphing that I had a gun. I do think I will stick to my regular carry method as pocket doesn’t work well in what I usually wear (jeans).
Lastly, I have weighed carrying OC. I’ve been exposed to OC a few times and its unpleasant. What I fear is having to use it and catching some blowback and being impaired (if even a little bit) during a defensive situation. I might be overthinking that. Don’t like the idea of a stungun, have to be up close and personal for that. I like the idea of keeping as much distance as I can.
That’s great to hear. The fact that you have a plan and have those kinds of discussions is what matters!
Jeff
I’ve thought about OC, but I keep going back and forth on that debate going on inside my head.
I was thinking about the same thing a week ago. What made my mind up was, several videos of confrontations with an unarmed deranged person, where using a firearm would have been excessive force. I see it as giving you enough time to blast a few bursts of hot sauce at your attacker, also giving you more time to decide, can, should, must I shoot.
Jeffrey26, First of all, I am very glad you guys are o.k. second of all I want to propose something to consider. You guys were in your car, the guy was a pedestrian with no apparent weapon. There was absoutely no reason for you to exit your car and verbally engage the guy. You intentionally subjected yourself and your fiancee to a potentially dangerous situation that you did not have to participate in. You could have driven away. Now BBQ hot dawgs are really good, but the jailhouse does not serve them. By your actions you gave yourself a greater than zero chance of I jury, death, and spending at least a night or two in jail - all for a hot dawg.
My recommendation for next time, drive away. The loss of the hot dawg order is far smaller a loss than what you risked.
I would agree with your recommendation action if we were in our vehicle.
If you read my story again, we were not in our vehicle, we were at the walk up window. Attempting to move towards our vehicle would have made us move closer to the guy who was threatening to kill us.
I do appreciate the suggestion however.
Jeff
Edit: I probably could have made that much clearer in my initial telling of the story. We parked in the parking lot, walked over to the walk up window, and were waiting in front of the business standing in the outdoor dining area about 15 feet away from the sidewalk waiting for our food when he walked past.
ALL police departments are under staffed currently and things are getting worse on a monthly basis. No one wants to be the popo anymore.
I know my local department is currently down about 20 officers from what use to be normal staffing (238)
They will be losing 30 more over the next 12 months ( that they know of ) with plans to hire 4 new officers over the same time period. Many departments are lowering their hiring qualifications in an attempt to draw in more applicants
Bottom line? Expect response times to increase… even for true emergency calls
The idea that you really are your own first responder has never been more true.
Welcome to the community,train hard and be safe.from Michigan 
I did miss that in my first reading of your post. In that your situation was different, your telling does make more sense, especially since, like you said, you were trying to get to your truck and escape the situation – Good job.
That’s why we need to carry…when the ■■■■ hits the fan, the police will be too busy dealing with far crazier scenarios.