In some states maybe. I watched that NOT work in CA for a long time. In MO it works.
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I have been a long time believer in this. But it should not stop with our government, it should include places posted as Gun Free zones. I do have the choice to go elsewhere, but why should I have to? In Aurora, there were at least three concealed carriers in the movie theatre. All had left their firearms secured in their vehicle. They could not have stopped the shooting, but there is a good chance they could have shortened the duration. Two theatres near me no longer have gun free signs posted. I believe it to be a decent start simply to ask the store manager what extra security measures they have taken when they put that sign up. If you limit my ability to protect myself, are you accepting the liability of my getting injured? When enough people do that, attitudes might change.
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I like that approach. I’m keeping that in my pocket should I need it.
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I like that @Stone, I’m going to start asking.
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? Legislators are personally responsible for costs incurred by individuals due to laws they pass?
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Polite, thoughtful, and to the point.
What kind of responses have you gotten.
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@WildRose
You said “At least we can hit them in the budget though. If they had to start raising taxes to pay for their neglect people would riot.”
I said “In some states maybe. I watched that NOT work in CA for a long time. In MO it works.”
In CA they ask for the tax increase and get it. And then they raid the general fund, or funds required by law to go to infrastructure and use that… despite it violating the laws they passed.
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Gotcha. Had me wondering there for a while.
You’re right, with all the enterainment industry moneys in the state they don’t seem to care.
You’d think though that eventually the majority would figure out just how badly they are getting stuck.
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Actually they have been respectful. There has never been any “extra security measures” in place besides the sticker on the door. I am fortunate to live in a state where ignoring a sign posted on a location not designated by state law gets you asked to leave and, if you do, they cannot press charges. I don’t carry in when I bring this up. I also let them know that I will use a different theatre until the signs come down. When I moved here five years ago, there was only one theatre within 20 miles of my home that was not posted, now there are three I am aware of. Now, all but one of the doors entering the mall do not have stickers on them.
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I’m going to play devil’s advocate here. My right to defend myself does not override someone else’s right to say what they will or won’t allow on their property. You can definitely ask them why they want to limit your ability to defend yourself.
In essence, we’d be asking them to limit their right to not infringe on our rights on their property. If we don’t want someone to infringe on our rights, should we infringe on their rights?
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Agreed @Dawn. Someone who wishes to make their own private property a “gun free zone” is well within their rights. My taxpayer dollars don’t pay for them, and I’m not required to patronize their business. We can protest, politely in a verbal manner, and with our money.
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You don’t have to, you can make the choice to patronize the business or not. If you choose to you accept the potential risks by entering unarmed.
That’s the beauty of choice, the business owner chooses not to allow firearms, it’s their freedom of choice, just the same as your freedom of choice.
Buffalo Wild Wings used to have a sign posted, they have since taken it down, but their policy is still no firearms. About a year ago a group of us were in their local restaurant talking about guns, none visible, the manager came up and asked us to leave because we were making other guests uncomfortable with our conversation.
Here’s the thing, no other guests were seated near us, we were away from everyone. I’m sure we made our server uncomfortable, he complained to the manager who asked us to leave. On the upside they did “pay” for the meal, we were forced to leave immediately, the refused to box up what was still on the table. Haven’t been back to BWW since.
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WOW! That’s terrible! But it doesn’t surprise me.
When we were in Pittsburgh for the Expo, two of my coworkers and I were at the hotel bar (unarmed) at the end of a long day of setup. Three gentlemen sat around the corner of the bar from us and asked us what expo we were there for. People’s responses to us are always a gamble when we talk about where we work.
So one of my coworkers explained we were there for the USCCA Expo, all three guys looked at each other than signaled the bartender - for another round for all of us! They bought us a round of drinks and we talked 2A for about an hour. It was a great conversation with the guys who were there for a welder conference.
The bartender wasn’t as happy about serving us when he heard our conversations. Oh well, we are very good customers on business trips and don’t carry in bars so he didn’t grumble too much 
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I don’t know if it’s me or if people are changing their thoughts, but I’m noticing more and more people are open to the gun discussion.
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That’s what I was getting at, I do go elsewhere, and let them know they lost business. But, if some other group of people were asked to leave, it would be plastered on social media and some manager would be getting sensitivity training. If you had been talking about a Judeo-Christian religion near an Atheist waiter and he complained, do you think you would have been asked to leave? Probably not. What you are talking about is a form of discrimination. As of last July, there were 16.3 million CC permits in the united states, technically we are an unprotected minority.
Nice to know about BWW, one just opened up near here. I will have to look for the sign and, if its not there, ask the manager. If he says they are ‘gun free’, I will walk across the street to a steak house that allows open carry.
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Dawn, I was not suggesting that we ignore their right to allow or not allow someone on their property, I was pointing out that we, as lawful firearm owners and permitted concealed carriers should not be suppressed in this way. If a different group of people were asked to leave their property or banned from entering, there would be a major social media event, news coverage and all that. A good chance corporate heads would roll. People would get sensitivity training. Policies would change. If you watch the news, you’ve seen this over the years fairly regularly. We need to consider that, then determine what we can peacefully and calmly do to change policies that are slanted against law abiding gun owners. 16.3 million CC permits in the United States, technically we are an unprotected minority.
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@Stone this is a very interesting line of thinking. Let me see if I can work this through a bit.
In prejudice and discrimination I think its important to draw a line between those things one can change and those things one can’t. Being discriminated against because you’re black or short or female is one class of behavior since those things you have no control over. Being discriminate against because you have tattoos or pink hair or swear a lot or carry is another… those are things you can control.
Both swearing a lot and carrying stand out in that second group because they are part of our enumerated rights. Only carrying is generally addressed by law as well.
Refusing entry to a public business because of things you can’t change like race or gender is obviously wrong.
Looking at it in this light, I think refusing entry because of the exercise of an enumerated right is equally wrong.
And the murky part… should BWW be allowed to ask someone to leave because they were excessively foul mouthed? What about a group of med students talking about gory injuries they’ve seen? Prostitutes discussing the details of their trade? Slaughterhouse workers discussing their jobs? Carriers discussing their guns? Because I think we’re discussing your first amendment rights, not your second.
If you carried concealed and discussed cars, and were asked to leave, I think it would have been your second amendment rights at stake.
All that said,the owner of a place of business has an unenumerated right to establish and control the environment in their place of business in order to provide their customers with a particular experience. Our first and second rights balance against that. If they are allowed, in that balance, to remove the foulmouthed, then they can remove us for discussing guns as well.
Which would earn them the loss of my business, plus phone calls to the owner and their franchise group to discuss the matter.
On the other hand, I think the honoring of “no guns” signs IS a violation of our enumerated 2A right, and laws that give those signs legal status are unconstitutional.
Interested in hearing your further thoughts on this.
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Are you talking public property or private property, @Stone?
Let me throw another devils advocate question out there. (Please know I ask these to help fill out your argument and help you develop talking points in a positive, safe environment so when you talk about it with an anti-gun person, you’ll be able to address even more concerns or arguments they may bring up. This is in no way meant to be an attack or negative toward you.)
I think there’s a difference to carriers being asked to leave. People are being asked to leave because of something they brought to someones property, not the person themselves. If someone brought a snake to my property, I’d ask them to remove it from my property because I am deathly afraid of them (yup, even grass snakes). I have nothing against the person, I just don’t want a snake on my property if I can help it.
… dang it! I just read @Zee’s response and she’s making the same devil’s advocate argument I am!
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@Zee you bring up an interesting point. In my case at BWW it was a 1A issue. No guns were present, just a discussion.
Does a private property owner or person in control of the property have the right to ask a person to leave because they don’t like the topic of conversation? Effectively they’re violating the right to free speech.
Should they have asked us to change our topic of conversation?
My thoughts on this: A property owner or person in charge of the property absolutely has the right to ask someone to leave the premises if they don’t like language a person is using. On the other hand asking someone to leave because you don’t like the topic is another ballgame.
No shoes, no shirt no service, if they don’t want my business because I’m barefoot or naked from the waist up fine, I’ll go to an establishment that welcomes me as I am.
I look at it this way, they’re excluding me from patronizing their business not because of the color of my skin, religion, sexuality, or because I have one blue and one brown eye, these I don’t have a control over. They excluded me for a conscious choice I made to carry or not wear shoes and shirt.
On this very topic, yesterday at Costco a very alert employee noticed my defense tool when I reached to grab something. Very discreetly she said “Costco has a no weapons policy, but I’m glad your carrying so I’m not going to ask you to leave.”
When I asked what drew her attention to me, she said as my shirt road up she noticed a bulge that seemed unusual and decided to see if she was correct by speaking with me. She never actually saw my defense tool, just an out of place bulge. We talked for a few, turns out she had attended a training class where they taught what to look for.
I’ve been a Costco member since 1991 and never knew they had a no gun policy. Time to re-evaluate our relationship.
Costco seems to be under the false impression that membership = safety, umm do you know how many members of Browns Town (local gang territory) that I see at Costco. If for a minute they believe membership makes their employees and customers safe they’re sadly mistaken.
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On Costco, yeah, I’ve ceased giving them my money, and won’t renew because of that… learned about their anti-2A policies on this forum.
This is where the finer and finer splits happen… I’m going to think about that some and reply tonight.
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