7 seconds - 35 feet That's how fast it happenes

I personally found that even 1 second draw doesn’t give me comfort to be sure I stop the attack from 20 - 25 feet.
Only lateral movement buys me extra time to draw, aim and take an accurate shot.

The element of surprise plays the biggest role in surviving deadly encounter. I remember few years ago we practice this on the range and I just went completely opposite, instead of making the space and draw I closed the distance and put the attacker down. Doing something unpredictable is a good tactic. :upside_down_face:

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Suprise tactics, to do something an attacker would not expect. Walking in Seattle after work, a guy approaches me and asks if I got a light and I respond, “Do you have an extra smoke?” was he attempting an assault approach? I do not know but I do know he was not expecting me to ask for a smoke.
Charging an attacker will throw him off from your reaction and be something they would not expect. They would expect you to retreat and fear for your life.
The one thing that is for sure is nothing will go as you believe it will. How you will be attacked or how you will be able to respond or how you come out of it. You can train, you can be vigilant, you can stay aware of your surroundings to help but all in all there are variants.

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We call it “The Fog of War”

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Another great example for those still making an argument for not carrying with one in the chamber. Obviously a LEO does but if you are being attacked by a assailant with a deadly weapon it’s not going to be possible to rack your slide & defend yourself. With one in the chamber you at least have the capability to fend off the attack with one arm while drawing/firing your firearm with the other.

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I was taught this at my first handgun self defense class but always wondered if this was the best choice given my limited experience with wrestling in high school. It can be done but there is a not so small chance the attacker fights through your one arm to delivers some potentially debilitating blows and/or gets both their hands on your pistol before it clears the holster.

The attacker could also have a knife and you don’t want to leave one of their hands free acting like a sewing machine on your gut and chest while you’re trying to draw.

I’ve been taking some Krav Maga lessons for the past year and specifically training in weapons disarms. It is a lot harder to fend off an attacker with just one hand/arm when they are using both of theirs against you. I have had far more success using both sets of arms and legs to quickly fend off an attack and buy the time and distance needed to get to my pistol.

But having a round in the chamber is still vital because the brief openings created often don’t leave time to rack the slide.

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I 100% agree that one on one, a bad guy can close this distance extremely fast. But I was thinking this one-on-one scenario is almost like it’s taking place in a tunnel with no one else or nothing else around. I was trying to think in my head when the last time I was in a setting where this scenario could actually happen. I’m not naive enough to believe it couldn’t happen but just couldn’t think of a Time for me anyway when it actually could. At my age I avoid lonely sketchy streets.

When I think back to many of these self-defense situations we have seen videos on, it seems the bad guy is often surprised. Not always but often. Not being an LEO I am not forced to place myself in a compromise position as they often must.

Guess I kind of got off topic. My brain is registering threat I’m not waiting for you to get to a magical distance. If you’re too close I’m at least going to try to hit you with my hickory cane. Now that’s Heartwood hickory 1-in diameter. I have the Palm rest designed as a head knocker!

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I can imagine some similar potential scenarios. I do a lot of hiking. The number of dangerous people in the backcountry is a lot lower than in urban or suburban areas but there are some out there. So a sketchy person walking down the trail who suddenly decides to charge is a possibility. I also do surveys on public lands near private property or utility right of ways and occasionally run into people who are convinced I don’t have a right to be there. They occasionally get quite threatening about it.

You could also be on a street or in a store and an unhinged person just decides they don’t like something about the way you look or that you have something they really want. That would be even more challenging if there are other innocent people around you have to account for.

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I’ve seen numerous SD instructors discuss this very thing. Your best option could be hand-to-hand (or hand-to-knife, etc) until you can create some distance. I believe I’ve seen Michael Janich discuss this once or twice in USCCA content. At the same time, if I’m on the losing end of that, one hand is going to the gun before I’m toast. In terms of training for one technique or the other, it’s both/and, not either/or. Have as many tools in your toolbox as you can and pick the right tool for the job.

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When the topic of the Tueller principal is mention in this forum, it makes me wonder how many people here, who actually carry a gun regularly, have tried this drill?
Having done it in several classes as well as many times on a private range when training with friends, it becomes blatantly evident that the 21 foot number barely applies even if you know the assailant is coming. The moment you change the age ( physical ability) of either the defender or the attacker that 21 feet can go up drastically. In the classes it was discovered if the defender wasn’t able to also move laterally, in an effort to buy more time, the 21 feet was never enough. Keep in mind also during most of these classes we were drawing from an open carry holster and weren’t concerned with defeating a concealment garment.

I feel I need to mention here that in several of my classes the excitement of the drill caused the “defender” to attempt his draw towards the “attacker” Only to be prevented by the instructor who is standing next to the student. The way this drill is staged is very important. I suggest the runner stands to the back of the student with his hand on the student shoulder. At the signal the runner or in this case the “ attacker“ runs FROM
From the student “defender” back towards the parking lot at the back of the range. It’s helpful to have a third person mark the runners position when he hears the second shot engage the target (we always used metal targets). By eliminating or removing the runner entirely from the defenders view greatly mitigates the possibility of having the shooting student accidentally draw on the running classmate during the excitement of the drill. :roll_eyes:
Another method I’ve employed during training is to place a an empty milk jug tied to a rope or Paracord 21 feet in front of the shooter. Then the runner holding onto the other end of the cord, standing back to back with the defender, makes an unannounced dash from the defender in the process pulling the milk jug in towards the defender as the runner heads towards the parking lot☺️ The idea is to hit your target before the milk jug gets to your feet.

The drill is a lot of fun to do and usually leaves the defender thinking, “ I really need to work on my draw”. :smiling_face:

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:love_you_gesture:
I hope each Member who talks about it tried it at least once… Otherwise it will be canting talk… :face_with_monocle:

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In my first defensive pistol class the instructor had a cardboard human torso target attached to a wheeled cart. Another student stood behind you with a rope attached to the cart. He would play with the rope so you wouldn’t know when the cart was going to actually move. It would also trigger some students to start their draw before the cart actually moved which was a disqualifier. While this was going on the instructor would ask you distracting questions about your life making it harder to concentrate on the target.

Then the student with the rope would run as fast as they could pulling the target straight at you. This was a level 1 course so we didn’t have the option of lateral movement. You had to draw from concealment and hit the target before the cart hit a wooden stopper a foot or so in front of the barrel of your pistol. Quite challenging and fairly realistic. Definitely got the heart pumping.

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The description of your drill sounds like a fantastic way to work on the skill. Also I’ve never seen it taught in a beginning class

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This was day 2 of a 2 day level 1 defensive handgun class. Think this was the required class for armored car drivers and private investigators to get their certifications to carry in VT. VT does not offer or require carry licenses for the general public.

We also had a very small class size that weekend so I suspect we got to do some extra things that we might not have if there were more students to deal with.

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When you’re able to start doing things like that in your kinetic handgun classes things start getting really fun

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I like to practice this at indoor range, because it’s so easy to setup. Without any special design, using simple indoor range target carrier I can simulate approaching threat from various distances. Speed, of course, is 3 times slower… but results given are the same. The most important is how fast and smooth the shooter reacts for approaching target and how accurate hits are within a given time.
This can also be expanded to the next level… the target (assailant) can be moved back and forth messing with the shooter, what gives additional shoot / don’t shoot options.

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Please, Please, Please. get everyone to say “Tueller drill” and never Tueller rule. Using the word rule is core to the misunderstanding that 21 feet is a set limit for a shoot/no-shoot decision under law. It is not! As others here have pointed out, the Tueller Drill is a demonstration of why it is necessary to respond to with deadly force (firearm) at a distance when being attacked by a non-firearm deadly attack such as a knife, club, or overwhelmingly more powerful human.

Knowledge of and the ability to explain the Tueller Drill is sometimes needed when justifying a self defense shooting of an attacker armed with a knife or bludgeon. It is that knowledge, combined with knowledge of typical reaction times, that can make a difference in a successful claim of self defense.

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I apologize for using the term but I was referring to the non existent “21 foot rule” too many people falsely believe is a thing because of their misunderstanding of the Tueller Drill.

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I agree with you 100%! moving backwards under stress is a formula for disaster. It’s too easy to go over your heels. I believe you’re much better off moving off at an angle left or right towards cover. By cover it could be a parking meter, a garbage can, a parked vehicle, bench any obstacle that slows forward progress of the attacker. But trying to shuffle backwards under stress at a high speed will put you ass over tea kettle. The last thing I want to do during a knife or bludgeon attack is to end up on the ground.

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Don’t you just hate it when those pesky details ooze out after you’ve taken a position on a matter?

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This is what gives me problems about all of the mental masturbation that goes on. I can get a center mass shot on the clock from Tueller distances. 2 things though. Just because you got a center mass shot off it doesn’t mean it was a stop. Until it has happened to you and you get that massive adrenaline dump, it’s all talk. All you can do is train and hope you answer the bell. Trying to make a judgement about someone else’s incident is just ridiculous.

I’ve been in a few situations that have answered my own personal questions as to what I will do. But until you have actually had to fight for your life it’s just mental masturbation.

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