Over the years I recall seeing reports of a robber approaching their victim, suggesting he had a syringe with HIV infected blood, and threatening to stick the victim unless they give up their valuables. These days, I imagine the bad guy can skip the syringe and just threaten to take off the mask and infect their victim with coronavirus.
I am not quite sure about legal status of such act, if it can be considered involving a deadly weapon, and what is reasonable and allowed defence in this situation. I’d like to discuss these scenarios:
They have a syringe, i.e., a sort of a stabbing weapon
They have a cup of liquid, and say it is acid, i.e., chemical weapon
They say they have coronavirus and threaten to infect you, but no object that can be considered a weapon is involved.
Let’s start with how is someone getting that close to you without you knowing it? (COVID-19 - why are you near someone who has it? That’s why we’re staying home.)
Imminent, unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm. No one is getting that close to me - especially right now.
Without knowing 100% what is in the cup or syringe, can you say it’s a deadly threat? People talk big and can make all the threats they want.
It comes down to the reasonable person test - what would a reasonable person do in the given situation?
If I’m a reasonable person (I like to think I am most of the time - even when I need my morning caffeine), here are my reactions:
They have a syringe, i.e., a sort of a stabbing weapon
they shouldn’t be close enough to me to touch me without me seeing them.
walk/run away from them if they get too close
can’t walk/run away - use verbal commands to draw attention to them and back away as possible
they charge, pepper spray or another less-lethal option (I don’t know what they have, but a syringe by itself isn’t necessarily a lethal weapon.
They have a cup of liquid, and say it is acid, i.e., chemical weapon
they shouldn’t be close enough to me to touch me without me seeing them.
walk/run away from them if they get too close
can’t walk/run away - use verbal commands to draw attention to them and back away as possible
is acid a lethal threat? That’s something you’d have to check your local listings about.
They say they have coronavirus and threaten to infect you, but no object that can be considered a weapon is involved.
they shouldn’t be close enough to me to touch me without me seeing them.
walk/run away from them if they get too close
can’t walk/run away - use verbal commands to draw attention to them and back away as possible
You may see a bit of a pattern - no one should be able to get that close to me without me seeing them, especially with social distancing. But even without it, your head should be on a swivel.
While Italy is prosecuting COVID-19 patients, I don’t think US courts would look too kindly on shooting someone who claims to have COVID-19 because they threatened to breathe on you.
Sounds like a threat that you would want to defend yourself from. Seems like in this scenario distance is your friend. If I can get out of the area and avoid the threat I will do that before I consider drawing.
I would say it 100% is part of the original scenario, @OldGnome. Situational awareness is always part of the scenario (save for attacks from the back, even then we should see people behind us to a certain extent if we’re being situationally aware) - if not, we’re not doing our job as responsibly armed Americans.
I have been out over the past week and radar is firing over every person that comes into view. I was watching and waiting at Kroger as some people appeared to be cutting in line but they were there with friends or family members who waiting in the line while they went and picked stuff up. You could feel the tension in the lines. And there were many of them.
And then there is the video sometime back where a woman slashed a child’s face as she was walking past.
If a person threatens me with what they claim is an HIV infected syringe of they have what they claim is a noxious liquid, and you cannot distance yourself, it MIGHT be a deadly force encounter based upon the explicit threat.
As for saying they have the corona virus and are threatening to infect you with no apparent weapon, I cannot see where that is a deadly force encounter.
If I am walking on a path in the park I sometimes have to get past some homeless guy who placed all his possessions on a bench and has his cup out. I am closer than 6 ft to him and have my kids with me, so no running away. I sat for lunch at a restaurant with my coworkers, and we were approached by a woman asking for money, and getting irate when noone handed her a Benjamin - again, not a situation when you can distance yourself quickly from threat. Thankfully, these never escalated above Condition Orange.
Also, remind you of a defensive shooting in Polk county, FL not to long ago. An Uber driver shot and killed an aggressor who suggested he had a gun and was going to shoot him - and in fact was unarmed (he held his phone, and it was dark). Not sure if this is relevant to verbal deadly threat, that involves a chemical or infectious agent. What do you think @MikeBKY?
That is in line with my comments above. If someone makes a verbal threat of serious injury or death and says they have an unseen weapon and you see something that may be a weapon, even a finger in a coat pocket, I’d be inclined to respond as if he is armed.
I may look like the age group that would survive with little to no symptoms however I have underlying issues, a skin condition where I can’t use scented products or I get rashes.
For me personally, it would fit the bill of fear of severe bodily injury or death and therefore lethal force is authorized should threatening person ignore warnings whether verbal or visual.
A person may see me as a big guy, a bit overweight, but who can do a decent bit of manual labor… In reality, its exhausting for me to do even the most basic thing and I literally sleep most of my first day off work and get very little done the second day off as I’m trying to prepare myself for another work week…
My appearance is somewhat strong, in reality, I have the energy of someone a few decades older.
It’s something that I deal with too, so I get it. While a body may look strong and able, it’s possible that’s not the case; appearances CAN be deceiving.
I feel like a good, firm fist to the jaw would take care of most of those threats. I’d probably take the risk it’s a cup of some liquid. A little acid on me a lot of acid on them (slap the cup out of their hand). Coronavirus threat… pretty sure I could outrun someone with pneumonia. If there’s no chance to run… see above. The syringe is a bit different. I would possibly take the brandishing charge and just pull my weapon. That’s a great deterrent as a last resort.
I’ve been advocating the use of masks for a few months since I’ve been a radiographer since 2007. If anyone that is not family gets closer and 15 feet and they don’t have a mask I step away. I am always in condition yellow and scanning not only for people with weapons but people who are coughing. I make sure to always stay upwind, plus I stay home as much as possible.
