The big question

“our sons is way off the rails in thought about
family behavior”

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Hello and welcome @Victor68

I’m don’t see “not in a rational state of mind” from a difference of opinion on what constitutions “family behavior”

Don’t forget, labeling someone as dangerous and red flagging them because their idea of “family behavior” is different from yours will become a 2 way street, and fast…I can think of a lot of things that a lot of people wouldn’t consider “family behavior”…despite being perfectly legal and safe.

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“Sometimes these laws save lives.”

Let’s assume (for a minute) that the folks who implement these laws have good intentions.

What is their metric for determining whether the laws work as intended? How does one ascertain whether red flag laws save lives?

Because they did not kill themselves, or someone else, is it because a red flag law made it harder for them? Where is the proof? Where are the statistics to show red flag laws work?
If statistics do exist, they are flawed. There are ZERO ways to know whether someone did or did not kill someone or themselves because of red flag laws. There can ONLY be assumptions, like yours, in which you stated “The person was, in this case, potentially at risk.”

I for one, am not willing to trade rights for assumptions.

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I’ll go one more, I don’t care if Liberty and Rights infringing laws do save lives. There. I said it. Put me on the list with Ben Franklin.

Even IF these laws saved lives, that wouldn’t make it okay to violate the Constitution, violate individual Rights, violate individual Liberties.

It’s the same with gun control.

Let’s not forget, that just because the onerous control laws do NOT save lives, and just because we can show that these laws do NOT save lives, that doesn’t mean they would be okay if they did

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Well, it is usually the children who cut off ties with their parents when the parents refuse to enable bad decisions.

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If removing guns from law abiding citizens can save lives in defiance of the Second Amendment, imagine the benefits of disabling text messaging and calling from a cell phone while in a moving vehicle, which is not protected by the Constitution!

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The OP says “we chose to cut ties”

That was the basis for my personal recommendation to not cut ties with your children

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Nathan57 is correct
we had to cut ties because the vile attacks from his husband [and we have the data saved] the best part is they are in Switzerland so no chance of
physical confrontation at this point just the internet and phone.

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Todd: I don’t mean to be sarcastic, but please do not give legal advice unless you are actually a lawyer in the state where the OP lives. Laws and how the local DA reacts to the state’s red flag laws vary from state to state and county to county. If you notice the lawyer who talks about court cases limits his comments to Missouri because that is where he is licensed to practice. He doesn’t talk about the laws in CA or FL or TX because he is not licensed to practice there.

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Well said. Red Flag laws are more “let’s do something” even if it is the wrong thing. The first mistake red flag laws make is they assume that the firearms they have recovered are all the firearms the person has access to or can obtain easily. Secondly, if a person is a true suicide risk, he should be taken into custody. In CA a peace officer can institute a 72 hour hold where the person is involuntarily detained at a mental health facility, usually the county hospital, evaluated by medical personnel and have medication prescribed for his diagnosed condition. If the doctors consider he should be held beyond 72 hours he (or she) is asked if they will voluntarily commit themselves. The usual answer is “NO” and the person is then brought before a judge where the judge must evaluate the testimony of the doctors and the statements of the patient to determine if the patient should be committed for an additional period of treatment.

That is what should happen if the “danger” is self-destruction. If it does not happen, then what is the purpose of just seizing some guns? There are all kinds of ways to do away with oneself. The most popular in Japan where suicide is sometimes a group exercise is carbon monoxide poisoning. Readily available. Just go out in the garage and start the car. Make sure one has a full tank of gasoline. Quiet, no mess to clean up, no disfigurement.

Red Flag laws almost universally are ex parte orders meaning the “accused” isn’t even notified of the hearing. It is equal to star chamber hearings. I believe it is totally unconstitutional but what do I know. I think someone will bring a case before the Supremes and unless Biden gets to pick a couple more Supremes, it will be ruled unconstitutional. What other right can be taken away in a star chamber hearing? Even when they locked up Wendel Wilkie for speaking out about our involvement in WWI, at least he got a trial before they hauled him away. It was a kangaroo court hearing but at least he was permitted to offer evidence and defend himself.

My advice to the OP is to consult an attorney in your state who is familiar with red flag laws. It is important that he or she has had experience with more than one case. This is where USCCA can come into play. They have a list of attorneys in your area that they can provide. You can contact them and ask to make an appointment for some legal advice. Before you actually make an appointment tell the telephone answerer that you want legal advice on red flag laws and does the firm have such experience. If the answer is in the affirmative, when you actually see the lawyer in person, ask him to list his experience with such laws in your state. If he satisfies your request, there get his advice and pay the bill. You might inquire as to his hourly rate when making the appointment so that you won’t pass out when you hear the amount. With the situation you outlined $500 or $750 might save you $10,000 later on. If there is proactive measures you can take, you should give them serious consideration.

I have a feeling for where you are. Somewhere along the line my kids got off track on firearms and they now think that firearms should be denied to everyone but themselves which they need for self-protection. Isn’t that always the way. D.Feinstein is the perfect example of that. She carried a snubby the whole time she was La Mayor of SF despite the fact hat she had no carry permit. It’s okay for me but not for thee. I’m rational and safe you on the other hand are a gun freak just waiting to blow some innocent person away. Perhaps living in SF and associating with all the jackasses there has infected them. They aren’t to the point where they are willing to inform on me but I am sure if I pass without divesting myself of any firearms I might have they will be happy to turn them in to the local gestapo for melting down (yeah, right. I can see that happening.) No one here can help you with advice as they don’t know what state and county you live in. They have no idea what the red flag laws are in your state or, indeed, if there are any red flag laws. Not every state has them. That’s the first thing you need to determine from a lawyer.

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Sorry for your situation. If your state has red flag laws (don’t agree with them) than you should address this person aggressively. He, she or whatever is suffering from a serious mental illness. Firearms do not belong in the hands psychological compromised individuals. He, she, it or whatever represents a danger to you and society.

I will be honest, I didn’t read back through everything in this thread just now, but, I dont’ remember reading anything that made me think the above. Would you mind sharing what in particular you are basing that on?

Sure nathan, glad to talk to you. Understand that my comment/observation is based anthropological and psychological and involves certain Biblilocentric imperatives. That being stated the observation on the question that was replied to was formulated using that matrix. To be as brief as possible the following is offered for your consideration. Sex/gender are determined chromosomal during embryonic development. That is simple biology. An individual that can not recognize or come to evidentiary conclusion is not of sound reasoning. The individual in question is suffering from a psychological delusion. A delusion is defined as a fixed FALSE belief. Anyone in this mental state is compromised and does not conform to the norms and morays of a civilized society. Such a person needs help far more than a firearm. Good to talk to you have a glass of wine and a great day. BoB. ¥

Personal opinion: We should not be using religious believes or our own interpretation of “norms of civilized society” to declare people who believe different from ourselves are not The People, do not have a Right to keep and bear arms, and should be red flagged.

That is exactly how you and I and anybody else out there gets red flagged.

Plenty of people would have a similar paragraph explaining why ___ are not conform to the norms and thus should be denied their Rights and Liberties. In fact, in most places (every single state in the country going by permit %'s) it’s a fact that the majority and thus the “norm” is to NOT carry a gun. By definition if you are permitted to carry a gun, you are not normal. Should you be denied the RKBA for that? Of course not.

I was trying not to get into the weeds on this but, that’s where it’s going…the OP says “his LBGQRSTWXYZ life style”. I am not sure how you got from there to stating this person doesn’t recognize/acknowledge sex/gender as a matter of biology. Do you mind sharing how you made that jump?

Infringing on someone’s RKBA is an extremely significant thing.

I cannot condone depriving people of the RKBA simply because they choose a different lifestyle than other people.

I also really get my hackles up when someone says that the Right to self defense and the Right to keep and bear arms (effective self defense) doesn’t belong to people who aren’t normal (not conform to the norms and morays of a civilized society).

And again…take a long hard look at how that thought process could be used to apply to you

This is how the control proponents win. In part. Divide and conquer. Who needs enemies with friends who red flag you because of who you choose to mary?

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https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/who-needs-guns-some-more-than-others/

From Kevin Michalowski. You know, the Protector Academy and USCCA YouTube Channel guy. I’m sure he shows up in Concealed Carry Magazine too.

I support LGBTQ rights. I do so without equivocation. I also really feel like I have made that clear in my past writings and videos. So when someone asked me about it recently, the first thought that went through my head was, “Clearly this person does not know me.”

So, let’s lay it out clearly: If you are a human being, you should have the right to do all the same things other people get to do. You know: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

All Rights Matter

At the same time, you should not use your rights to infringe on another person’s rights. And before any extremists out there start emailing things like, “So people should just be able to do ANYTHING?,” stop and think. There are exceptions. We elect representatives to make laws that are supposed to preserve order and protect people. I believe that when you violate those laws, you should lose some of your rights. But, by and large, if what you are doing is not adversely impacting public safety or taking away something that rightfully belongs to another, I have no problem with you doing it.

If you want to get married, get married. If you want to live together without getting married, do that. If you want to worship a certain way, fine. As long as your style of worship does not require, or even suggest, that you attack another for his or her style of worship, I support you. I’m sure there are more examples, and I’m sure there is room for discussion and debate. But I don’t have the time or the inclination to go through every “what about” scenario. I try to be rational, logical and kind. I figure if I am doing that, I’m OK.

If you must have a reason why I support LGBTQ rights (and lots of other groups we will talk about later), here it is: If you can take away rights from one group, someday you will take away rights from me. I stand up and speak up to stop the erosion of rights because I know that if I don’t, one day someone could try to take away my rights.

Guns Make Us Equal

I especially support LGBTQ gun rights. And I support Maj Toure, the founder of Black Guns Matter. (I still need to buy one of his “All Gun Control Is Racist” T-shirts.) I also support JPFO.org — that’s “Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.” I support all these groups because, in all honesty, minority groups are the people who most need the protections guns afford. People who are outside the mainstream are the people who are most often singled out for persecution and violence. I believe EVERY human being has the right to defend his or her life, liberty and property. Yes, we have established some guidelines covering what makes such defense legal and righteous, but those guidelines should be universally applied.

Guns make us equal. A gun allows a 97-pound woman to stop a 250-pound man from attacking her. A gun will stop a group of drunken idiots from beating a gay couple for holding hands on the street. Guns, when available, have stopped lynchings. Without guns, we would be ruled by the mob, just like the hierarchy inside a prison. In there, the young, the strong and the many make the rules. If you are older, weaker or choose not to be part of a gang, you are at their mercy.

I support freedom. And I realize that “freedom” means freedom for all — not just for the people who think the same, look the same or act the same way as I do. If you think someone should not get the same freedoms as you because they are different from you, that makes you part of the problem.

Giving freedom and equal rights to others does not take anything away from you. And you might just get another ally in the fight against gun control.

About The Author: Kevin Michalowski

Kevin Michalowski is executive editor of Concealed Carry Magazine and a fully certified law enforcement officer working part time in rural Wisconsin. He is a USCCA and NRA Certified Trainer. Kevin has attended training across the U.S. as both a student and an instructor in multiple disciplines. These specialties include pistol, rifle, shotgun, empty-hand defense and rapid response to the active shooter. He is a graduate of the Force Science…

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I don’t know if this helps but there are a few pro 2A organizations that will keep your guns if you need your firearms removed from your home. I don’t know how it works or if it’s an alternative to police or government confiscating them.

This topic threw a red flag for me. Pun Intended.
There are horror stories in any category about abuse of power be it red flag or dog ownership. Two points: Neighbor sees you carriyng an uncovered rifle from your house to your car where its placed in back seat. Neighbor hates you and hates guns calls the cops and reports “I saw my neighbor blah blah blah I am scared” would that prompt a report and investigation?
Point to, same situation but a dog, the neighbor hates dogs and calls anilmal control and makes a complaint of cruelty?
I have sceen both scenarios play out, luckily the PoePoe in town investigated and found nothing.

As for the son, mom and pop thing. I can suggest this, acceptance is not approvals. What that means is he is a grown ass adult, he can make his own decisions and does not need your approval or acceptance nor do you and your wife. I understand exactly the situation, wife and I have been on this roller coaster. Lines can be drawn with mutual respect if its done with honesty and love. He is your child for craps sake. You may not understand and approve but accepting the fact its his choice and life is not your buisness. I see it this way and explajned it to my child and partner. I love you both, I dont aprove as you know, but its your life, if you are happy that is all I want is that my children are happy and safe.

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In a conversation with friends and family once we were discussing the meaning of death and life, I told the group that I was put here to be judged, not to judge. In the end we are going to find out we are all family. The definition of death is getting the answers to all our questions, Buts it’s too late to tell anyone here. :us:

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Honestly that sounds like a good idea, “Red Flag Laws” as part of protecting 2A people like ourselves.

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