We may not be on the same page.
I was thinking this was about accuracy in shootings, and overall running average hit rates between the two. Are there any studies or statistics about that?
When I have researched that, I came up with very similar average hit rates between the two.
Edit: Okay I see your next post. Roger that.
It would be very interesting to see how the two compare, if it could be done in a neutral manner. Again, the sample will skew the results. Not every desk jockey needs a firearm, just like not every citizen carries a firearm, and not every firearm owner trains.
I know at the ranges I’ve been to, police officers get very competitive and shoot well above average. But then again, these are police officers at civilian ranges, so they may not be representative of an “average” police officer, any more than the rest of us can represent the “average” citizen who never goes to the range.
Both groups have a huge range of abilities.
Going to any random public range and observing will show us this.
I have a little insight, I’ve been through a police academy and have been very deep into gun ownership/concealed carry for a long time.
I would take the average street/patrol officer over the average person who has a permit or legally carries in a Constitutional Carry state. This average carrier in my experience has significantly less training than the average police officer, with most ranging from zero to the state mandated ‘training’ to get a permit. In my experience, every sworn police officer is tested to a higher standard before they hit the street for the very first time than most concealed carriers ever test to.
Up a level, I would take the average private citizen who competes over the average street officer. Even if it’s just club level at the local range once a month doing bowling pin, or unofficial idpa type stuff.
I would take the average SWAT officer over the average non-competitive competitor referenced above.
I would take the dedicated private citizen competitor (think IDPA classified) over any police officer who doesn’t also compete at that level.
Keep in mind that comparing Officer Involved Shootings with private citizen Defensive Gun Uses is not a fair comparison in that private citizens almost always use their firearms against an attacker trying to harm them right now and are usually within the 3-5 yard distance. LEO on the other hand very often fire in defense of a third party, actively seek out very dangerous criminals and intentionally corner them to try to take them to jail, approach violent criminals in vehicles not knowing who is there or how many to try to detain them, engage at longer distances, engage around or through cover, etc.
A “someone at the door” scenario is what actually started my journey into firearms. My wife was home alone one night while I was at work. It was just her and our newborn. Someone came to the door and knocked. She didn’t answer. He didn’t leave. I’m 15-20 minutes away. The guy eventually left (likely salesman), but the situation made us both ask “what if?”
The other week someone came to our door soliciting replacement windows. He rang the Ring. I had my daughter stop practicing her musical instrument long enough for me to see who was there through the peephole (I was close to the door, quicker than pulling up the app). I never opened the door. It was a salesman and he probably figured I wasn’t going to open the door when he heard the music stop and then start back up again without us opening the door.
My wife arrived at home one day years ago to find our back door open. We did not have a home security system at the time. She called me. I instructed her to not go inside. I came home. No vehicles in the driveway. No sign of forced entry. I cleared the house and found nothing wrong. Not passing the buck, but my guess is that one of our children used the back door and didn’t get it fully latched and the wind blew it open.
In the scenario in the thread above, I would pull up the Ring app and would be able to tell from there if the interior motion sensors are showing activity. I would not go in if I had any reason to believe someone was inside. That’s a wait for the cop scenario.
I have a little but not real elaborate. I do have and use a peep hole in my door.
I have Simplisafe and am very, very satisfied with it. It is simple to install and use and the customer service is terrific. It is the centerpiece of my security plan. It gives me situational awareness via the camera system, which also serve as motion sensors. It is modular and expandable. I highly recommend it.
The reason, I don’t like peep hole 
Yea I’ve seen that, it is a little disconcerting.
I don’t know if you remember this…
… but before that murder I thought “pistol + peephole” was reserved to movies only 
As a rule, I don’t open the door unless they’re friends and relatives who call me in advance if they’re visiting
It’s the 21st century and doorbell cameras are cheaper than ever.
I kept the old doorbell too and I’m curious why some people press that one instead of Ring.
Did they think it won’t start recording just because they didn’t hit it?
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Many times, I just watched the idiot who ignored the “No Solicitation” sign. They don’t deserve a response. They’re wasting my time so I’m wasting theirs too. Also, it gives me more record of their face the more they stay in front of the door.
Being assassinated by a guy with a silencer?
Peep holes have their place. For me, their place is when you have no reason to think there is someone there and you want to peek to double check
Also, our peep holes (not on the front door, but others) have a sliding cover so that you can have the peep hole always look dark and not have an observable transition to when you look
Yeah, I was thinking the same, but unfortunately some peepholes are made the way you can still see the blink of the light from outside, the moment you move the cover.
Anyway, I think whoever wants to pull the trigger doesn’t count on the light, more on the sound behind the door.
Perhaps.
I also think someone on the other side of a random person’s door shooting through the door like that is beyond exceedingly rare.
If your options are to see what’s on the other side of the door by peeping, or not see, I’m sure seeing is safer. But then I suppose it depends on the scenario. o’dark thirty or unexpected etc I guess if your only “see” option is a peep hole that gives away your position, just don’t see, stay back and ignore them or speak from a distance
Seeing from a distance with a camera or offset from another window/spot that has a sneaky view of the door area would be nice though
You’re right about sneaking between the camera’s, especially when these are visible to the others.
Peephole camera is the solution.
You don’t look directly through the hole, you see the image on the screen.
Everyone should know if someone has their back to you be it fleeing or whatever they are not posing an immediate threat and could go to jail for murder . If I was gonna approach someone like that I’d go out the back door and I’d turn the tables on them fast!
I wouldn’t broad-brush state that anybody with their back facing you is automatically and necessarily not an immediate threat. Weapons don’t have to face the same direction as one’s torso, I’ve seen my share of videos of people facing their back to someone while simultaneously shooting at them (or another)
The email from USCCA reads -
LEGAL: “…However, nothing justifies deadly force against a fleeing suspect.”
Wow. I’ll strongly disagree.
Any human being who is suddenly exposed to a deadly danger -an existential threat- can experience panic, terror, and shock. It takes a matter of seconds for an otherwise reasonable person to be overcome with a fight or flight reflex that was NOT of their making. It might take a victim minutes or hours to stop shaking and calm down, and return to a normal [legally “reasonable”] state of mind.
They are not morally and should not be legally responsible for whatever action they may take in the immediate aftermath of facing great bodily harm or death. We as a society, and as members of a jury in particular, must not hold the victims responsible for any of their actions against “a fleeing suspect”.
If you are suddenly forced into a state of terror or shock by someone, you might lose your ability to judge what is happening, or know when the threat has ended. We simply cannot demand a victim be “reasonable” throughout such an ordeal.
The legal and moral FAULT must lie with the aggressor/felon who put the victim in such terror that it initiated their survival behaviour.
If a felon gets shot in the back moments after attacking someone with a deadly weapon?.. it’s only because that felon caused his victim to become so terrified that they momentarily lost their ability to judge what was reasonable.
I live in Commie California and am well aware of stand your ground! Your conclusion though that shooting fleeing attackers is flawed? They stole your gun and broke into the house and at this point demonstrated a Clear and Present danger to you and the community! This would mean that engaging suspects fleeing could be argued self defense of others! Which is clearly proper use of deadly force! Even in a crap hole state like Ca. Also since they had the weapon you could argue they attempted to engage you as you ran them off the property also justifying deadly force! I live with a lawyer (I am not suggesting that makes me a lawyer?) and believe this situation can be defended when the facts of this situation are argued as described in your story!
I am not a lawyer but I don’t think that argument (self defense of others by shooting a fleeing suspect) will likely work in court.
See Tennessee v Garner for a solid reference. Also consider the word “imminent” which is in a lot of states use of force/lethal force laws (check your local listings)
*not a lawyer, could be wrong
Nothing this individual did was smart and he is lucky he was able to get to his AK. As for my alarm system, I turn it on every night and I see it as a warning system to let me get to my weapons. I also have a dog and while she is not attack trained she will bark and LOOK as if she will attack and she is my warning system as well. I also have one of those unbreakable glass storm doors so if I open my door main door a perp cannot break the storm door. Finally, I can see who is at the door on my alarm monitor screen.