Shove, guard & shoot practice

Train to abilities you know you have. Try (dry fire) other styles and you might find more abilities. Create self limits in your mind and you’ll never be able to move foward to betterment. I found for myself abilities I can do rather well.


I am a trainer, and if I don’t make those kinds of judgments then someone can end up in over their heads.

I can also judge that you could have made your comment in a far more civil tone. If that is the attitude that you walk through life with, then I can also make a judgment that you have a greater likelihood of encountering trouble “out there” than most of the rest of us.


I’m a trainer too and have had the pleasure of learning from folks that are not just world class, they are way unavailable to most. Not ONE of them has ever prejudged a trainee, and everyone of them strives to take folks to where the trainee themselves believed they could not go. That’s what a REAL trainer does. When you don’t preconceived the needs or capabilities of an individual they will blow you away (and themselves) every time. Decades of experience has proven that to me.

I don’t strive to be specially civil but I do strive to be stone cold factual. I’ve read a lot of your posts and I’m pretty sure I’m right in the money, at least about your stance on “civilian” training, which by the way goes against everything the USCCA stands for.

And your judgement of me is as off-base, poor and misguided as your opinion on the capabilities and needs of those you see as beneath you just because you happen to wear a uniform and badge.


My judgment of your tone was a response my friend.

My interactions with trainers, especially “Train the Trainer” interactions have also been with world class “folks”. I never indicated prejudging, but a world class trainer most certainly makes quick up front judgments.

First judgments are usually in the category of, “Is this person listening to and understanding instructions”.

Finally, your implication that I am not a “REAL trainer” is absolutely a prejudgment. Since you are identified as a USCCA Defensive Shooting Instructor, I am deeply concerned as to your approach to me and this conversation as a representative of this organization.

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There is no tone, and there is no emotion at all in my observations. Just my perception based on your expressed opinions on this forum. And I’m sure I’m not alone in this perception, but that means nothing, not the first time I’ve been accused of saying what most are thinking.

In any case you can sleep well. My record as a trainer speaks for itself and it’s truly none of your concern. And I don’t represent the USCCA and I don’t work for the organization, though I highly respect the principles they espouse and the services they provide to their members. They just happen to be one of the certifications I have.

In any case I’ve said my peace and have nothing else to contribute. Others can make up their own mind in the subject. Have a great day.


You might want to read your posts and see yourself in that mirror. You posts indicate your arrogance and how little you think of “civilians”. As a police officer, or better yet, former police officer, you are just a citizen, one of the rest of us in our classless, egalitarian society.

Just like the general public, police officers, and “elite” groups, have those that can perform at higher levels than others among them. Should your betters look down upon you and tell you that you shouldn’t “x”, because you aren’t as good as them?

I was not born capable of using knives, hammers and firearms with either hand, I learned that through practice. Based on your presumption, I should never have tried because I was left-hand dominant. If one never tries, one will not become the person you believe you are.


Enzo and now you have attacked me personally. If you disagree with my positions, experience, and opinions, then say so. Better yet, debate by asking questions so ignorance can be circumvented.

To personally attack someone that you have never met, never talked to beyond the keyboard, and no little to nothing of the journey’s path that that man has taken is unwise.

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im all for the crawl, walk, run approach to training people, but the idea that some of us don’t train weekly because we arn’t LEOs is kind of judgmental and a bit offensive, honestly. the idea that anything new is a ‘gimmick’ also shows that you are old school mentality and arnt willing to make changes due to new information. if you havnt vetted what your teaching through FoF training it should all be taken with a grain of salt. the idea that LEOs are somehow just more qualified honestly blows my mind after shooting with quite a few deputies from local counties, 1 in 4 might actually have a clue as to what they are doing with a handgun.

i let it slide off like rain on a duck due to your former profession and where you held that former profession, and honestly, i expected you to have some opinions on certain aspects of what civilians should and shouldnt do or train due to your own stated localities.

all that said, lets keep it civil, everyone can questions each others methods without resorting to personal attacks or name calling. it reflects poorly on all of us in the end…


You need to re-read your posts and your assumptions about the rest of us who aren’t, in your view, capable because we are not police or military or some elite special class. I was only expressing my viewpoint on what you posted. I did give specific examples to show why I believe your stance is wrong and how the way you wrote it makes you appear. Whining about being personally attacked after demeaning everyone else is almost amusing.

I do agree with a lot of your posts, but attacking people for wanting to be better able to defend themselves and family does not suit our community. Your claim that they should not use a particular tool because they are not you, police or military is at minimum unhelpful, compounded by your claim about their abilities and reasons why they should not have those things and your assumptions about them for having them.

[edit] I am on my iPhone, so I am not as detailed in my response as I ordinarily would be, and clipping quotes is far more difficult.

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I’ll admit to not reading the whole string. I’ll catch up later but wanted to make one comment. If you’ve never fired your pistol with the gun closer to your body rather than extended like most are used to, the sensation can be more than a little jarring. You certainly feel the muzzle blast in a way that is totally different. My trainers emphasized this before we used live rounds.


Reread my posts. I never inferred that there are not those who train hard and often. Nevertheless, be realistic. It is human nature to start off with a bang (pardon the pun) then taper off.

Consider how many people buy gym memberships in January, but are no longer going in May.

Also, I am aware of more non law enforcement people that are more accurate on the range than most cops. My neighbor’s granddaughter is the best rail gunner I know. She began beating her dad when she was 13 and has been winning championships ever since .

I also know that one of my Department’s more infamous shootouts had the distinction of having four members of the pistol team on scene. All four fired their weapons, and all four missed. An overweight Detective took the bad guy out.

I live in Arizona near the confluence between Gunsite, Saurez International, and Ben Avery. They are there because they are popular. Some of Gunsite’s best instructors have been military guys rather than Law Enforcement.

Yet, I strongly disagree with the statement that I am “just a citizen now”. No more than anyone should tell a retired military man, that he is just a citizen now, either. Dave, consider the following;

I have been in ten shooting situations. (7 in the Rodney King Riots, two during pursuits, and one other).
I have had five people try to kill me. Three were “laying in wait” with firearms. One was with a knife and the other was with a motor vehicle.
I had my partner shot in the face (and killed) on a traffic stop. I watched him die in the hands of a Viet Nam veteran (who had become a Firefighter Paramedic) desperately trying to save him.

Do you actually think that that stuff goes away when a man retires from the job? Do you think I checked my skills, training, and experience at the door?

And if you think I am critical, get over it. Cops are the most critical professionals I know. When one of us goes down, the rest of us dissect the situation to the Nth degree. I recently revisited the Newhall Shooting because I came across new information. That shooting took place in April 1970. We are critical because that’s how we learn, just like we learned from that overweight Detective.

Now, my point in my previous posts, was that for most people, and especially for the Seniors I train, simple and straightforward is the way to go. Running them through Hogan’s Alley isn’t a good plan. I shouldn’t be personally attacked because I recognize that distinction.

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If you had Mike Tyson, Joe Foreman, Mahamad Ali, Joe Frazier to ask about boxing, who would you listen to? If you did not say all of them then you are missing out.

When you listening to the instructors at a range you are getting what they have to offer to you. Which one is better? The one that keeps you healthy and alive.
I have listened to several instructors’ views on this, and it is a question, how do you fight? Fight like you are the third monkey going on Noah’s ark and it is starting to rain. In my training and experience I have followed Bruce Lees training, Be like water and adapt to the situation. Same as someone’s training, just adapt to the instructions given.


@Todd30 , pretty much my point from entry # 20 on this subject. You just went into more depth about different trainings.
Well said…


One of my mentors said it so well when he told me, “Listen to everything that comes from the mouth of someone that has proven that they are better at something than you. Then weed out anything that does not apply to you or sounds like BS.”.

He also told me that many who can do something can’t teach worth a damn. Not everyone is a qualified instructor regardless of background. You have to learn to teach the same as you have to learn to shoot, and teaching is actually harder.

This advice has served me well for a long time. At times I’ve had to sit through hours of said BS to get to ONE jewel that made the trip worthwhile.


That does not make you more of a citizen than the rest of us. You likely have more experience in those than most, that does not make you better than the rest of us. Step off your high horse, citizen. You still only get one vote and one opinion; trying shame us or shout us down will not work and only makes you look worse. I do not stand down to bullies - I probably have more experience than you in that. I was small for my age when young, and was an introverted, highly intelligent, nerdy kid. I learned early not to back down. Bullies are weak-minded, stupid, and have no guts.


Steven288 so. Are you going to write him a citation :question: or just a warning. :question:. And. Does that uniform still fit :question: and are both of you serious KAZ. Really brothers , that uniform is off the chain Bobby Jean :heart::chile::owl::feather::feather::hot_face:

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Brother it has got to be the uniform , it just looks that good , but please don’t talk about his horse :racehorse: haw haw. Lighten gentle men. Seriously play nice. Amen GOD BLESS YA BOTH AMEN :latin_cross::us::chile::chile::owl::feather::feather::hot_face::bangbang:


Thank you Bob, and you are right.

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Dave17 Love ya all. Just two different LAKES. , AND. USCCA. NRA AND EVERY THING TO TRY AND SAVE OUR LIVES , and. BE ABLE TO DEFEND OUR SELFS TEN TIMES A HUNDRED TIMES A THOUSAND TIMES :bangbang::chile::latin_cross::us: TILL WE ARE ALL SAFE FROM ALL HARM. GOD BLESS YA ALL LOVE BOBBY JEAN AMEN BROTHERS :latin_cross::us::chile::heart::owl::feather::feather::racehorse::dizzy::100:

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Dave17 and you know I AM the most miss understood cat on here but it takes all of us. USCCA Amen STAY SAFE. EVERY ONE. NO MATTER WE ARE IN THIS. TOGETHER PALS BROTHERS USCCA. LOCK AN LOADED AMEN GOD BLESS US ALL AMEN TRULY THANK YOU ALL Bobby Jean an Debbie ann :latin_cross::latin_cross::latin_cross::us: