I believe I posted this several times, If you don’t have one in the chamber your gun isn’t loaded. The extra move you make to chamber a round in a fire fight can cost you your life.
5 Likes
Actually, the statement “In other words, if I was faced off with my evil twin with identical gun and holster, if his gun had a loaded chamber he would have gotten two or three shots into me before I had racked the slide and gotten my first round going in his direction. Fractions of a second mean a lot.” was made by Ayoob, not I. I merely quoted him from the article.
Context is indeed important, which is why I provided a link to the article by Ayoob at the end of my previous post. That allows any who desires, to read the article in its entirety, giving the necessary context.
I personally have no illusions that I have equal or greater experience and expertise than Massad Ayoob. As such, I will defer to his knowledge and wisdom on this issue.
4 Likes
I live in Chicago and I always have one chambered and ready, and am aware of my surroundings.
Have a great day Mo
6 Likes
I’ve seen people drawing like that and the holster comes out with the gun. 
3 Likes
Cheap holster, cheap death…
3 Likes
I suspect that you mean of low qualty and not cost. Cost rarely has much to do with anything, except to those who run around requoting quotes, like “you get whayyou pay for”, one of the more ridiculous things ever spoken out loud.
3 Likes
I know.
I still asked if you were going to stand with your feet in cement.
Nothing I have ever read or heard Ayoob say even suggests he would stand in place and wait for incoming rds.
That is why I stated the context. The article you referenced ONLY spoke to timing, use of a timer, to determine speed of a draw and racking a slide…
As I said, if you draw, and move as you draw… ‘get off the X’… move laterally, move back, just move somewhere, and preferably towards cover, you can draw and rack your slide and that small amount of time will not be that significant.
There are other sources … some included in different threads here… that had timing of draw and fire, plus draw rack and fire, and the timing is not significant… though both are showing a known value, such as draw and rack and fire… or draw and fire… and it is not a sudden unexpected self defense situation, it was planned, for timing purposes.
So, in the context of just that, yes, a chambered rd is important (and as I said, I carry chambered), but as I just pointed out, nothing I have ever read or heard Ayoob say even suggests standing in place waiting for shots coming at you.
That is why I said context. You took one article, where he is specifically speaking of one thing and one thing only… and have not considered all the other information he has provided.
I do carry chambered, but have no problem if I had to carry without one in the chamber, and would need to draw and rack… I am not standing in place and am moving to cover so that I am returning fire and .02 up to .6 seconds is not going to matter much. So, while Ayoob is correct in up to a point in the specific article and timing he was demonstrating, I will take the overall view of everything and not just one article.
Never claimed any such thing on my part. I will however defer to the entire spectrum of knowledge and not try to limit it to an article that was dealing with one issue specifically.
Have a great day.
2 Likes
Yes I meant low QUALITY.
I don’t care how much the holster costs, it has to be good enough to make holstering and drawing secure.
…
however I bought cheap holster last year for dry firing… and that was my first and last “cheap/low cost” holster. 
So I know what “cheap” product means…
I don’t use this quote (“you get what you pay for") as well… but unfortunately sometimes it tells the true…
2 Likes
One in the chamber, +1, no safety.
3 Likes
I think we’re kind of straining at gnats here. I don’t think Mas’s purpose in what he wrote in “Is an Empty Chamber Dangerous?” is to definitively establish a precise numerical round disadvantage of carrying unchambered under all circumstances. Otherwise the article would have been titled “The Definitive Quantitative Analysis of Ballistic Disadvantage When Carrying A Firearm Unchambered”. (Yes, I’m being facetious) Nor do I think he was trying to evaluate every conceivable variable of a chambered vs unchambered encounter. I think it is fairly clear within the context of the article that he is providing some basic quantitative data to demonstrate the fact that all other things being equal (Mas vs Evil Mas), an individual who is carrying unchambered is putting themselves at a serious and potentially lethal disadvantage. Mas himself indicates the main purpose of his test in the article. "I wasn’t there to see how fast I could get to a gun under a jacket, but to compare as closely as possible Condition One carry (with a round in the chamber) versus hammer down on an empty chamber, sometimes known as ‘Israeli Carry.’ " So he is clearly not trying to evaluate all the possible variables with his test.
As to whether the participants in our hypothetical Shootout At The Ayoob Corral are stationary or moving, we simply don’t know for sure, because Mas does not specifically state that information. (Although from the photos in the article, he does appear to be stationary.) That would be a good question to ask him.
“You took one article, where he is specifically speaking of one thing and one thing only… and have not considered all the other information he has provided.”
Yes, I quoted from the article “Is an Empty Chamber Dangerous?”, because it is an article that is clearly relevant to the one thing we are discussing within this thread, " Should you carry with one in the chamber?". While I have not read the entire breadth of Mas’s works, I have yet to run across anything where he suggests that carrying unchambered does not put one at a disadvantage. If you are aware of any such work, please let me know the title. I would be very interested in reading it.
"Never claimed any such thing on my part. "
First person singular pronouns were used by me for a reason. I was speaking for myself, and only myself.
3 Likes
The only reason I think this question gets asked over and over again is because the person is not yet used to carrying. I was the same at first because of my training growing up and in the military.
4 Likes
You’re probably right. I would imagine most of us had a period of time were we had just a wee bit of trepidation carrying with one in the chamber.
5 Likes
And I wasn’t picking on you at all, just trying to be clear for your audience. 
I own a lot of excellent cheap stuff and plenty of high priced junk. We all poo-poo on those generic holsters, but one thing that they do well is allow us to carry multiple firearms without owning a room full of holsters. I have proper, firearm specific holsters for the two I normally carry and use the generic ones when I want to carry anything else (full size/hiking, etc.). I already have one hobby that tries to take my money. I do not need another. lol
3 Likes
I would believe that to be correct. I recall when I first began CC, I carried at home for several days first. I did not carry with one in the chamber, until I had the epiphany, I assume, we all do - the firearm will not “go off by itself”. All my range time re-enforced that premise. That was when I became confident, carried one in the chamber, and began carrying outside the home.
They are also good when one is not sure of which carry style one is going to use. I bought a cheap nylon holster when I first began my CC journey. I was unsure of how I wanted to carry, and the cheap holster had many ways it could be attached, IWB, OWB, strong side, cross-draw, etc. It had a belt loop and velcro on each side, and a metal clip that could be moved, horizontal, vertical, and either side, depending on carry. Well-worth the $15 I spent. I still have a couple of holsters that I do not use, but I at least learned my initial preferred carry style. I now carry OWB, so I have yet another holster. 
3 Likes
I know, @Brad. We are both long enough at this Community. 
Of course you are perfectly correct - price sometimes doesn’t come together with quality.
Hopefully Community members are aware of this and follow other threads where we discuss products.
5 Likes
And again… if you are pointing to one specific issue, and yes it was about the chambered or an empty chamber, it is still important to point out as much information as possible.
There are many who are new, and may not understand the context or have had any contact or knowledge of Ayoob or even Col. Jeff Cooper, so that we should ensure a more full picture of information is provided.
As I said, I carry chambered, and that is how most should carry, but if someone were to prefer to carry without one in the chamber, ensure they know that if something happens, they should move, move towards cover…(drawing their firearm if needed, chambered or not, move towards cover).
That is all I was saying. Your comment, presents only a partial view.
4 Likes
Severe injury or death is faster than waiting for police to arrive
4 Likes
I was shooting with my friend who is a flight surgeon, Doctor and former Massoud. He was drawing with an empty chamber. He was so fast that I had trouble seeing him rack his slide. The only way for me to get even close to his speed was to have one in the pipe.
That being said, he always carries with one in the chamber. His reason: it eliminates needless moves.
Murphy will always show up unexpectedly.
It’s very difficult to rack a slide if you have to fire from retention in one of those “get off me” situations.
It’s very difficult to rack a slide if if your hands are sweaty/bloody.
It’s very difficult to rack a slide if you trip while trying to move.
It’s very difficult to rack a slide if you get knocked down on your back or having you head pounded on the sidewalk.
It’s very difficult to rack a slide if you are being choked by your own panty hose. (sic ladies)
Ya’ll catch my drift? 
I’ve given students a dummy round to carry chambered in their pistols. I asked them to practice drawing from a holster until they feel confident in themselves, finger placement and the smoothness of their draw.
Face it when we have that Cortisone dump and tunnel vision plus audio exclusion sets in, everything goes out the window. We revert back to our training…what we know.
P.S. practice racking the slide with the palm rather than the “slingshot” method. Take it from someone who’s been there. Murphy will always try to botch things up!
11 Likes
I am still new to CC but I was in the Navy a long time ago. We had old 1911 45s. We were trained to carry with the mag not even in the gun.
Looking back I am not even sure why they did that. Yes they taught us to draw the weapon and slap the mag in at the same time…however you still had to rack. I can only guess they had a lot of negligent discharges and it was just easier to convince us it was ok to carry that way.
In theory if you practice the 4 rules of fire arm safety, with most if not all modern hand guns, there should be zero difference in what you do and how you handle your weapon when a round is or is not in the chamber. Minus the need to rack the slide or not of course.
Like I said, I am new to CC but I do have one in the chamber when I carry.
4 Likes