Second punch

Remembering back to when we were kids at school and there was a playground fight, maybe with you involved. You notice how few people see the first punch, but everyone sees the second punch? As someone that has been a firearms user for 50 years but a CCW permit holder for 3 or so, I have a fear of defending myself or anyone else with a firearm. The scenario that plays out in my head is this; I see someone pull a firearm on another for what appears to be bad intent or I hear a shot and decide to pull my weapon. In the commotion everyone starts looking at the disturbance and sees me with my gun drawn. One of them is a well minded fellow CCW holder. They draw and fire at me, or I’m the late comer to the party and I draw and fire at the good guy. Either way the wrong people may very well be headed to jail, the hospital, or the morgue. I tell my wife and daughter that I would rather visit them in prison that at a cemetery but I don’t know how I could live with myself if I were on the pointy end of the stick in a friendly fire incident.

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I feel you brother and it’s so easy to get caught in a situation like the one you described. Stay safe, stay diligent and God bless you.

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Yep definitely a risk…which is why only you can make that decision on when to draw once you’ve done the math in your head of it being worth it.

There are these neon yellow sleeve’s that you can buy to put on after that might help with identifying you as a “good guy”, but obviously it’s of no good to you during.

One thing suggested in various training videos is prior to firing is giving clear commands and directions to your target not only to give the individual a chance to comply but to also provide that framing (hopefully) to everyone that’s around as an audience.

I know me as a CCW if I see someone drawing down, I’m putting my hand on mine and then going in to observe mode…then I would take action based on the individual’s actions (are they acting like a concealed carrier or a mass shooter) .

Hoping other CCW holders are getting training to do likewise.

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I think it’s called “the fog of war”! It’s the uncertainty regarding one’s own capability, adversary capability, and adversary intent during an engagement, operation, or campaign.
I have repeatedly gone over many scenarios in my head regarding this type of situation, from the Colorado movie theater to the Walmart shooting, where the good guy is shot from behind by the bad actors wife.
Like they say in the movies and on TV, sometimes you have to wait for the third homicide to make any sort of determination. But you already saw the gunman, you have an edge, you can either engage eye to eye or you can focus your attention and direct people to safety. Either way someone else is about to get hurt. Make sure it’s not you or your family!

From your scenario, you can rest assured that when the shot goes off and you saw the weapon pulled, most people will be running away from the shot as you are prepared to run towards the shot. No doubt the shooter will be on the move in the same direction, so I assume you will be in low ready and prepared to shoot once the shooter realizes you are on his tail. If there is another licensed holder he/she will most probably be facing the same way, towards the sound of the first punch. Granted, there are still a billion variables. I use the OODA loop, can your actions be decided in that 2/10 of a second?

There is ONE order in my life I will never forget and that is, “if while loading nuclear weapons, the captains wife is taken hostage, shoot her and then the hostage taker, that’s an order, son, the use of deadly force is authorized!” The greater good and all! I keep this in my head with the knowledge that someone may get in the way as soon as I pull the trigger. Unfortunately, if you’re not a member of SEAL team six, you are not trained for chaos.

In all these scenarios some innocents are going to get hurt, whether you’re protecting yourself, your country, your home, your business, your school, your family! Yes, even you, yourself may be injured. It’s why we train and constantly think of these scenarios, in the hopes of not becoming the victim.

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Situational awareness is key in this scenario you mentioned here. If you didn’t see the first punch I suggest the tactic of observation and keeping your head on a swivel. If you are going to take action you better be sure you are shooting at a bad guy or don’t shoot at all.Theres a good chance of another CCW person seeing you draw down and shoot you. BE SURE OF THE ACT BEFORE YOU REACT.

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Not my fight in your scenario as presented. I’m out the back door…

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“Is the person under attack a part of my ‘circle’?”

In your example, since there was uncertainty distinguishing between a good guy and a bad guy, neither one is part of my circle.

Skedaddle.

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I dunno, if I can take cover and covertly draw I’m going to do that if it’s not my fight. Running away is as equally dangerous as standing there so take cover and increase your odds. I dunno what’s going on or who’s who in the zoo. Walking into a gun fight is a good way to get dead or worse (war zone notwithstanding) If I’m with the family I’m doing the “Bodyguard GET OUT walk”.

Cheers,

Craig6

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You can always remember your first obligation is to escape and evade, only when your life is on the line will you defend yourself and stop a threat. A vocal expression of STOP! DROP THE GUN! May help you distinguishing you as a GOOD GUY!

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What could be worse than being dead? lol :crazy_face:

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Below are what I would say are huge considerations and good advice…

Johnnyq60
If you are going to take action you better be sure you are shooting at a bad guy or don’t shoot at all.Theres a good chance of another CCW person seeing you draw down and shoot you. BE SURE OF THE ACT BEFORE YOU REACT.

Ferdinand1

“Is the person under attack a part of my ‘circle’?”
In your example, since there was uncertainty distinguishing between a good guy and a bad guy, neither one is part of my circle.
Skedaddle.

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Like others have said “not my fight”, if your life or the life of your loved ones/circle that are with are not threaten then its not your fight. Your role is to get you and your family to safe location

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An election gone wrong?:nauseated_face:

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Me being injured and my loved ones dead comes to mind.

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This is a great question that comes up often in my classes.

You, and hopefully others have to take in the totality of the incident. Look at mannerisms, intent, verbal commands being yelled out, firearms stance and presentation…

Hopefully they spent a lot of time on this in your LTC course. If not, I’d really recommend taking the defensive shooting fundamentals course from a USCCA instructor. There is so so much to learn.

I wish more people thought about this.

Don’t forget to always run " if, then " scenarios in your head…

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Jeez just a whacked thought. Don’t pull your weapon unless you are sure of what happened. You fire at the wrong individuals & no one can help you. Commands are good as stated. But be sure…

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One thing I have started doing is wearing my Combat Medic hat alot more. My certs are back current. One thing I have been thinking about is getting a jacket made that says

“Neutral Combat Medic” or Neutral EMS on the back in high visibility letters

Does that sound like a bad idea? I’m not impersonating anything I have the certifications , training, and qualifications. But I have thought about how do I show I’m a good guy with a gun if I try to stop and provide medical assistance or join the hunt for a mass shooter until the professionals arrive. Maybe even just a highly visible Red Cross arm band.

I’ve actually been within blocks of 3 mass shootings, not counting what happened on 12/19/18. One of them I was in a surgery 3 surgical suites away from a disgruntled employee mass shooting

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Brother @Zavier_D it’s not a bad idea. When you say neutral does it mean you provide aid to anyone, call me dumb. As far as you being an armed good guy they will know because you open carry correct? Just be careful that while you are providing aid that no one tries to snatch your firearm.

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I would help anyone (with some caveats). I carry concealed, and try very hard to grey Man except on range days because I have alot of $$ tied up on some of my guns. So I OC then for deterrence value.

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It would surely make you stand out. Good/bad I’d really have to figure that out . I only worry about doing harm to the wrong person & new gunners trying to do good at the wrong place & time.

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