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Please re-read your Bible. No, I did not use an ad hominem attack first.
In fact I never called you any names. I categorized your behavior in that your believing that killing someone is something you can feel good about - implied by your words that you could “sleep at night” after killing someone.
We are not canceling your opinion only calling you out for your righteousness and unjust negative portrayal of the rest of us, implying that we are all seeking to kill others. Apparently you are projecting your feelings upon us, as you are the only one that stated you would kill another person, and would be able to “sleep at night” afterwards. Apparently believing that your killing was “justified” and something that would not cause you any negative emotional reaction, a sign of sociopathy.
Again, that is not what self-defense is about. We seek to avoid or de-escalate, not kill. The last resort is to neutralize (again, not kill) the threat using lethal force, if necessary (again, not seeking to kill).
Edit: Lethal force is not necessarily a firearm, it could be a knife or just your bare hands, etc. More die from hands, feet, and fists, than the “feared” AR-15, other rifles, and shotguns, as listed by the FBI in their annual crime stats.
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You assume that what is common sense to you is common sense to the court. This is self -deception. Note I do not disagree with the course of action, but I strongly disagree with expectation that you are out of trouble and your actions are going to be viewed as virtuous.
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I think it’s use could just as easily go against you, There could be a valid argument that you felt your life was not in imminent enough threat to use lethal force yet your actions could result in death or serious bodily harm to another.
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“Because if you shoot them with a rubber bullet and they decide to run off then you are free and clear but if they continue to come at you then you have your lethal round to finish the job.”
Where do you live? Where I’m from if you use a firearm it’s lethal force, whether buckshot, bird shot, rock salt or rubber bullets. You’re certainly NOT free and clear.
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It should be noted that, recently, many law enforcement agencies have taken much flak from officers using rubber buckshot without proper training. Having looked up beanbags and “specialty” rounds-to include rubber buckshot, it should be noted that these rounds “can be lethal at ranges less than 30 feet.” A beanbag round to the sternum can cause the heart to stop. Rubber buckshot could result in the same if it hit soft tissue like the liver, throat, eyes etc. That said, if you proceed with this avenue of self defense and the situation arises where you are able to test it and survive, please post what the aftermath of your experience is.
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I mentioned this in another thread but it’s worth mentioning it here too I think. I took a Defensive Shotgun class recently from a USCCA instructor that was a former police officer. One question we had was using birdshot as the first shot and if they continue hit them with buckshot. He asked if we had loved ones in our house we’d be protecting? We said yes, he then said to just use #4 buckshot or 00 buckshot.
To expand on what he said he mentioned that you may face one of three types of criminals. Criminal 1 is some dumbass off the street where cycling the action and hitting them with a nonlethal round will do the trick. Criminal 2 is a somebody that’s probably high, looking for money or something to buy drugs with, will hurt or kill anybody that gets in their way, and the nonlethal round won’t hurt. Criminal 3 is a career criminal that could also be high and hitting them with a nonlethal will only encourage them; surviving a gunshot gives more cred in prison. Lastly he said criminals often have a partner or two. Even if you hit one with a nonlethal, you’re then shooting the other one or two baddies with buck.
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Interesting thread. I am all for less than lethal options, I want to learn a bit more on pepper spray. If I make a mistake out in public, I would certainly like my chances of spraying pepper spray over shooting in a court…
That being said, my shotgun is loaded with 00. My shotgun is in my home, for me to grab it, someone is in my home. I did not choose that, and I don’t want rubber pellets at that point. I fear for my life, and my loved ones. I carry with one in the chamber too. Not because I am violent, just because I may only have one shot. I am not involved on crowd control. No rubber projectiles for me.
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In my opinion even a rubber buck shot hitting you in the temple can kill you. In that case if it does kill you it is considered deadly physical force to a jury of your peers. They are not going to care if you used less than lethal force, a person died, period. And even if it doesn’t kill you they may consider it lethal force depending on the laws of the state. Remember the old sayings, “Your damned if you do and damned if you don’t “ or “Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6”, well those sayings have been around a long time. So consider them when you make the choice to use any force.
Johnnyq60
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A few things to consider here - every state is going to have different laws when it comes to firearms and self-defense.
Most states will allow the use of lethal force including a firearm if we are in imminent, unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm. We don’t aim for a leg or shoot to wound, we shoot to stop the threat. I would argue that “eliminate” the threat would probably be taken the wrong way. We want the threat to stop. We shoot center body mass/thoracic triangle because we know it that area can stop the threat and we are more likely to hit that area as it’s a larger target and doesn’t move as quickly as an extremity. We realize our shots may kill, but our goal is to stop the threat.
Another thing to keep in mind is that your firearm is a last resort. It should never be used as a warning - no warning shots, no brandishing.
In a self-defense incident, every second (I’d argue ever fraction of a second even) is important. We don’t shoot for extremities because we could miss. We don’t shoot warning shots because we’re responsible for every round that leaves the firearm and we don’t know if we’ll have the time for a follow up shot. Same with rubber buckshot. We don’t have the time in a self-defense incident to wait and see if a warning shot, shot to the leg, or rubber buckshot will stop the threat.
If you’re drawing your firearm and the threat leaves, do not shoot. But we never draw to intimidate.
Also, a jury may see any argument that we did what police officers were trained to do (rubber rounds for certain instances) as a bad argument because we are not police officers. We do not have the same training or duties as the police. (We carry the same ammo police do is a different discussion.)
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Best advice from this thread… this should be engraved in our brains.
“If you are a new pistol owner, do not think of it as talisman that will defend you magically. It is a tool, and like any tool you must develop a skill set to be able to use it effectively. Get some training. Treat it as your last resort, but be ready to use it effectively if you ever must”
DR. MICHAEL SWEENEY
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You have to survive long enough to get to court. You seem to have your cart before the horse, sheepdog. 
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In FL, displaying a firearm in self-defense is a “use of force not deadly force” by statute and precedent until you point it at someone in a threatening manner or say something dumb like “I am going to shoot you.” Then it becomes a use of “deadly force.”
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Actually, he would be better off starting with a rolled up newspaper. 
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He obviously doesn’t understand the implications of last resort.
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…and he admits to having been shot with a rubber bullet from a shotgun. Now…how does that happen – exactly?
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I’m just sitting here reading this nonsense, sipping coffee, and thinking to myself: I wonder how many of these fellas arguing so vociferously about this have ever killed another human being, been in a knife fight, been hit with a baseball bat (on purpose), or even won a grown-up fist fight. 
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Wearing rubber gloves?
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Not me and I hope to keep it that way, @Ken38! I’ve only been in sparring matches during martial arts training. Avoid and defuse if at all possible.
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Thankfully, I can readily admit to never having been in any fight - ever, and that is the whole point of situational awareness and self-defense; to never get into those types of situations to begin with. As a kid I did have a few try to start a fight with me, but if you are not fighting, there is no fight. The most I ever did was prevent them from hurting me, and several other times, from harming others. I never cared much for bullies, but I never harmed anyone. I never had the desire to harm anyone, and still do not.
I had a lot of practice with drunks and others as a young adult working the 12am-8am shift, usually alone, in a convenience store. So, I am fairly good with verbal skills to resolve potentially negative situations. I never had to call the police for assistance, and, of course, never had any physical altercations.
Self-defense is not about injuring or killing, it is about personal safety. Avoidance and de-escalation are important parts of self-defense, as any encounter where use of force occurs creates legal issues and potential for harm to yourself and/or others.
With a lot of thought and introspection, I understand I will do whatever it takes to protect my family and myself. I never thought about it prior to getting married. Learning situational awareness and self-defense techniques, including avoidance and de-escalation, have provided me with the knowledge and confidence that I am willing and able, if necessary, to protect them and myself. A firearm is just the last resort when all else fails; one hopes one will never need.
The worst situation I was ever in was on vacation abroad. Thankfully, the perp discovering I had a knife was enough to end the situation. I never showed it, as it was just a small pocket knife, but the click of it opening in the dead of night was enough to encourage the perp to find an easier target.
We were not discussing that, we were discussing use of a firearm, to which, my statement is correct, as you affirmed.