What do you think?
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I think…
- That his claim of self defense was a valid one.
- That blue States are sh*tholes.
- That his conviction is an utter travesty.
I saw the video on this. That group of teens were actively looking for trouble.
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This happened in Wisconsin
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Whoops… Thanks Dion. 
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IMO he was the aggressor!
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Unfortunately this video, like most, doesn’t start until after this incident had started. Hard for me to say who the original instigators were. The video seems to start with the man poking around what appears to be the kids’ makeshift raft. Poking around another persons stuff isn’t typical river etiquette.
I always do my best to avoid groups of teens who are messing around. Especially when drugs and alcohol are involved.
I’m not sure how or why this guy got himself into the middle of this group in the first place or why he didn’t make a better effort of trying to get himself out of there before things got physical.
Having and using some unarmed self defense skills might have given him another option to try before going for the knife if he was feeling threatened. Based on what I could see from the video I wasn’t getting the vibe that these teens intended to do serious harm despite their ability to do so based on the disparity of numbers. Perhaps I would have gotten a different vibe if I was there in person.
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“It’s hard to put into words how graphic and horrific this was,”
This is why he was convicted. 
Edit… Most people are not used to or never been exposed to “graphic and horrific” wounds. I watched most of the trial and I believe he was convicted on the photos and video of the wounds. Anyone who could “inflict this type of horror should be in prison”.
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Knives definitely make for some gruesome injuries but I’m not so sure the case would have been decided much differently if he had shot the 5 teens instead of stabbing and slicing them.
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He was shoved into the water at least twice, hit while in the water, and was surrounded by a large group of people. I recall when I was a young teen, while leaving the ocean, getting hit by a wave and knocked down. Due to undertow, I got stuck in the ocean surf, tumbling around, not being able to get footing or even onto my knees. The water was shallow, but the undertow kept dragging me under, and tumbling me around. I don’t know how long I was under, but I learned that even very shallow water could be deadly, as I needed to breathe, but was under water. It would not have been quite so bad, but I did not have a chance to inhale a large breath, before being unexpectedly knocked down.
This was a very dangerous situation; the verbal aggression against him, taunts, mocking, the physical, the shoving, knocking him into the water, hitting him while he was in the water, surrounding him, etc. They mocked and taunted him when he was walking away, then surrounded him. “For the cause” in that situation, I would view as a verbal threat, and with the numbers, one that is a credible threat to life and limb. I Tough call as the video evidence is not good, and, of course, is only after the incident was already ongoing.
Did the accused have a history of aggression or violence? He was cleary in danger at the time he fought back. A bad situation all around.
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Just the disparity of force alone should have been good enough for an acquittal. Hope he appeals. This is outrageous.
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Agree the video evidence is not good. It keeps cutting away. One of the teens says something about hitting a girl. I am pretty sure it happened before the push into the water and the hit. Did the knife guy hit the girl first? Did he hit her after she hit him? I don’t know.
What I did see were several opportunities for the knife guy to try and make more distance but on some of those he just moved back towards the teens. I also didn’t see him clearly saying and gesturing to the teens to back off.
The level of force used by the teens seemed pretty low. I agree it was a dangerous situation. But I would have put more effort into avoidance and deescalation before resorting to force. And likely would have tried less lethal force first if my deescalation attempts failed. Though I would have been prepared to shift to deadly force ASAP since they appeared to be chemically impaired making their actions unpredictable. And the teens clearly had a disparity of force so they had the clear ability to cause severe bodily harm.
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The word “teen” often means different things. In this case, it means a drunk lynching mob of men. They accused him of serious crime, too, that can have consequences when one is confronted by a mob. I guess he should have just shrugged it off, not get jumpy.
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I personally didn’t see the lynch mob part. Mostly saw a bunch of drunken name calling, some pushing and shoving and one wimpy punch thrown. It is not clear to me who started the physical stuff or the initial confrontation.
More importantly the jury and judge believed it was not self defense and this guy is going to jail. His lawyer apparently claimed he wasn’t trying to stab the guy he killed. He slashed him by accident when he fell. So if he wasn’t trying to stab the guy pushing him then was he really in fear for his life? I suspect he is asking himself right now if there were other options he could have tried before resorting to the knife.
I would have been very reluctant to use deadly force in this situation. It looked to me like there were other avoidance, deescalation and less lethal force options that still could have been tried. I don’t want to ever place my fate in the hands of a jury unless I am left with no other options. I would have been ready to use lethal force. But based on what I could see in this video I wouldn’t have pulled my knife quite as soon as this guy did. But I also have some martial arts training so even though I would have been at an extreme disadvantage against this group I still may have felt I had a little more time and options than this guy felt he had.
But I definitely wouldn’t have allowed this group to surround me as easily as this guy did on several separate occasions. If I kept walking away and they kept following I would have considered the threat level to be rising exponentially and I would have been yelling at them that I didn’t want any trouble and they needed to stop following and threatening me. If they had continued to follow me it would have been much clearer in the video that I was doing everything I could to try to avoid the fight and they were the ones continuing the confrontation.
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The differences in between people’s capabilities is the entire premise of the reasonable man defense.
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The problem is that in cases like this it is usually an uneducated jury deciding what is reasonable. And even with my limited but still much more than most training and experience I am not so sure this was a reasonable act based solely on what I can see in the video. I would be listening very intently to the witness testimony and statements from the victims and the knife wielder to try and get the missing pieces if I was on that jury.
I see a lot of missed opportunities where the knife guy may have been able to use to get himself out of this situation without resorting to the knife. That doesn’t necessarily mean he wasn’t acting in self defense in his mind and perhaps from a legal standpoint. But trying some of those options may have increased his chances of staying out of jail.
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Another lesson I see here is that the guy apparently used a Swiss Army Knife. That is not an improvised defensive tool that can be quickly and easily deployed with one hand in the middle of a struggle. This may have led to him feeling he needed to deploy it sooner rather than later? Kinda like what might happen with someone carrying a pistol without a round in the chamber??
I usually put my pepper gel in a dry bag when on the river. This video makes me think that I need to look into whether or not there is a waterproof pepper gel option that will still work reliably after repeated dunkings. If this guy had clearly told them to back off and then proactively sprayed them if they didn’t I don’t think many people would have had an issue with his actions, even if the spray didn’t work and he was then forced to use a knife. It would have clearly shown he was trying to use the lowest level of force that he could.
But it seems to me that all of that could have been avoided here. I remember having to deal with more than a few drunken bullies individually and in groups in my younger days. Walking away or talking them down works more often than not if you are willing to set your own ego aside.
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For me, that would have been a life threatening amount of force. But I also would not have been in that situation. From what I saw in the video, I standby what I said in the beginning.
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Getting shoved into the water and hit, I would have to disagree. I do agree, it seemed that he might have been able to do more to get away, but then we are looking at this as people familiar with situational awareness and self-defense. I suspect for the vast majority of people, those topics never make a blip in their minds.
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One mistake and you can drown in less than a foot of water.
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Most of us here realize how important situational awareness, deescalation and self defense skills are. We are also aware of how easily the courts can go one way or the other based on the whims of prosecutors and juries.
Based solely on this video I am very reluctant to say this was a clear cut self defense incident. But I think the video is an excellent example of why training avoidance, deescalation and less lethal responses can give a person options that might better help them avoid the legal consequences of a self defense incident.
I would not have reacted the way this guy did without first attempting several other options. His lack of awareness, avoidance and deescalation skills put him in a very bad situation. Even if the jury had found him innocent, or even if the prosecutor had decided not to bring charges, I would not be pointing this out as a positive example of clearly legal self defense tactics.
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