There are varying degrees of mental illness just like there are varying degrees of physical illnesses - from depression to schizophrenia, anxiety to dementia. There is not a one-size-fits-all assessment or treatment for any mental or physical malady.
The old days, they could throw anyone into an asylum for any reason, and they were horrible. Walked a couple museum exhibitions of them. The ACLU jumped in and said you cant just take away peopleās rights.
Now a days, I have privacy with a dr. Thatās a good thing. Letting the government have access to my medical files scares me. This is that with great power comes great responsibility thing, and I dont trust the government with that. I dont see a good solution to this that doesnt violate our god given rights.
Mental health issues, we talking both mood disorders and personality disorders? If there was a simple blood test to tell what you have, than no problem. Three different drs can diagnose different things. The amount of time needed with a patient to determine would be substantial. Then, are they stable on medication?
Who oversees that? massive can of worms. I think the gun owner should be held responsible for the actions of their kid if the kid pulls a sandy hook. The family is the first line of defense, and we know how thatās going in America now a days. I could rent for a while. Scary stuff
The ACLU had it right in the past but are now solidly behind using āRed Flag Lawsā to strip us of our rights without due process.
Medically the challenge is largely the APA and AMA. They put great pressure on practitioners not to report unless it is absolutely necessary due to an immediate threat. This violates their own ethical codes as well as the laws requiring them to report anyone who they believe to be a ādanger to themselves and othersā.
Additionally the RFLās create a condition where those who are not at all dangerous but needing help will fear being reported under same if they seek it.
We need clear federal legislation relieving physicians of liabilty, criminally, ethically, and civilly for reporting true cases of people who are actually identifiable as āclear dangersā but still also absolutely establishing the illegality and unconstitutionality of denying due process by arresting, searching, and seizing before a court has actually ruled based on 72hr holds or longer, that the person is actually a danger.
This is a topic Iāve struggled over for years but with the rise of the RLFās Iāve dug into it deeply with gun rights activists from both the medical and legal fields and readings of true constitutional experts such as Dershowitz, Seculow, and Levin.
I may not be on the right track but if Iām not neither are some of the best minds in the country.
Going down the worm hole. Who says to what degree of mental illness are you no longer allowed your rights. I donāt believe you can take just one right away. AND if youāre not āstableā then should you be allowed to drive or hold certain jobs?
Who sets the standards?
If youāre doing this under the umbrella of public safety then how far do you go to protect the public.
My opinion is mental illness is used to describe the vile people who commit these horrific acts of violence and terrorism because people need something to blame. They canāt imagine someone just snapped or in the terrorism world they have an agenda to scare and intimidate people. And thru it all how many times have people come forward AFTER the fact and say that they were concerned the individual would do āsomethingā and yet nothing was done to prevent it. Maybe they reported it but at some level somewhere someone didnāt act. I believe this is a loophole to take away rights and will do absolutely nothing but empower an already overreaching government and ruin good law abiding citizens lives.
@brian. Iām gonna have to respectively disagree. When a person decides to commit crime at that level they should no longer be looked at as a child. crimes like that are thought out well in advance maybe there were warning signs maybe not. But with the wording the gun owner should be held responsible then if they stole my gun or your gun then we could be held responsible. There are extreme circumstances where the upbringing can be blamed (abuse, drugs, etcā¦) That should certainly be looked at.
Exactly, itās definitely not a one size fits all plan. Also a lot of fine print and mostly a reactive āsolutionā Not much proactive. Iām not looking to neuter your defense options in home, but have a high degree of accountability over your firearms. The specific case I brought up about Sandy Hook, If I have my facts right, a guy with mental health issues, clearly known to his mom, had access to her evil black rifle. I am lacking on more in depth details on that, but I go to great lengths to prevent theft of my firearms. If I had someone who I know wasnāt in a good place mentally, who had access to my houseā¦ I vowed to myself long ago that if the day ever comes when my gun is used against a human, itās going to be me* behind the trigger and itās going to be for a very good reason.
One thing I think we will all agree on, there is no easy or cookie cutter answer when it comes to mental illness and firearms.
The discussion here may not find an answer, but can help advance understanding and help people see a variety of different points that must be considered for this very difficult topic.
I agree with taking every precaution to prevent my guns from being used by a criminal. I believe that itās a small percentage of gun owners who donāt take that seriously.
I also feel like a lot of energy is used on everything except the criminals. I understand people want to know why these things are happening but when we start trying to prevent things before they happen we lose freedom and gain nothing. Other countries have much less access to guns yet still have horrific mass casualty crimes.
I couldnāt agree more. It sucks. Since I donāt have anything good to contribute to this, and since I think in parables, Iām going to take another angle at this. ā¦
If you could push a button and cure cancer, but it cost the life of 1 random person, would you? You bet, thatās my answer. How about 5 people? 10? maybe 100? 1,000? At some point, you need to make a tough decision. Everyone has their own answer to how many random people they would sacrifice to advance the greater good.
Now, use this as a metaphor. Letās sayā¦ how many mass shootings a year are acceptable in a year before we make policies that inhibit responsible gun owners? The greater good and all.
I know how anti that is, butā¦ shootings are very emotional, especially mass shootings. Logic and reason make good decisions, emotions make poor decisions. Feel good laws arenāt going to help us. What will help us? Everything goes back to your comment.
When does someone become a criminal? Are they born a criminal? How do we proactively stop criminals? Whatās up with that ass hat Vegas shooter? Was he a criminal the day before? How could we have stopped him. I think this tangent does apply to the thread, even though I didnāt say mental health once.
These are the tough questions that need to be answered, and itās not a simple law that will fix it. Can a mentally healthy person snap to the point of going on a rampage? If thatās the case, only āprofessionalsā should have guns, right? There are still states that itās illegal to pump your own gas, because itās too dangerous.
I donāt see a win win for this highly subjective and emotional subject.
You make a lot of great points. The elephant in the room is our morals as a nation and a society. Itās become acceptable to be a mooch and peoples hard lives are other peoples problems. Instead of raising a generation to overcome hardships or obstacles we point and say itās that personās or policies fault. Blame everything else except yourself for making bad decisions. Bring back self accountability and self worth.
I know thatās going to be a very unpopular squirrel trail but at some point we have failed to teach young people how to handle dissatisfaction and control their emotions.
I think you make great points. Knowing the value of self and others is HUGE. I also think that we have failed to teach people that itās OK to disagree, but itās not necessary to hate someone you disagree with. Respect has been lost in so many areasā¦
Youāll see that respect for others, even when you disagree with them, is a very important thing for me. Without respectful listening and interactions, weāll never gain understanding or move forward with our conversations.
Like most things that can leave you disqualified itās going to be up to a judge. We already have a system in place to handle involuntary committments and based on the reports of multiple MHPās be they Psychiatrists or Psychologists the judge is the final arbiter.
Criteria? Can the individual exercise sound judgement? Can they distinguish between right and wrong? Do they have voices in their head telling them to harm themselves or others? Do they have the mental capacity to understand the consequences of their actions?
Other apply.
The big problem is how do we get individuals that are identified as dangerous into the system, evaluated and adjudicated to begin with.
Weāve seen in numerous mass shootings where in the aftermath when people were interviewd that the perp had a long history of drug use, irrational, dangerous, threatening behavior, long histories of conflict/contact with LEOās, school officials and yet no one ever acted to get them into the system and evaluated much less a court determination of ineligibility.
We need to be careful enough not to sweep up people that may have some minor issues and strip them of their rights unduly, or worse, create enough of a real fear that anyone needing some help will be immediately reported and have their rights stripped unjustly.
That sort of an atmosphere would lead to more people with potentially serious issues in the future avoiding getting any help for fear of being ālabeledā who will then continue to slide into madness and finally one day cut loose.
After reading about how your caliber can potentially be used against you in courtā¦ if I was on a hold for a psychiatric evaluation 12 years ago, and nothing else. Would that stigma stay with me? Used against me in a court of law ( or public opinion which can be way worse)? Finding the careful way to identify people would be the hard part.
@Brian1 unless the record of a 3day hold is expunged, yep, it would be used. Maybe even if it was expunged.
Weāve entered a time where the veracity of an event is largely trumped by the severity of the charges. Accusation or allegation of an issue can be enough, and once documented, rarely ever goes away.
Itās one of the things that I find deeply frightening about red flag laws. Accusation of instability, regardless of veracity, is all it takes to deprive you of your rights and drag your life through a knot hole backwards. Once thatās done, itās on you to prove youāre sane and no threatā¦ how is that even possible, given that people sometimes are, and then later, arenāt? Plus the stigma will stay forever.
Iāve seen peopleās minds fall apart, their brain go off the rails or their emotions take them over the edge, up close and personal. Its frightening, horrible, and tragic for everyone around them. Iāve seen some go there for a temporary reason and recover just fine, and others not recover at all.
There are people who should not have access to weapons, no questionā¦ itās not them I worry for. If the law could be tuned to address them, Iād be far less likely to object. Itās the people who have a problem, get help, and recover that these laws must protect. Its the people who are mistaken accused or who are falsely accused by someone seeking to harm them that these laws must protect.
Any red flag law that does not provide redress for those that seek help and recover or are mistakenly accused, and that does not contain stiff consequences for malicious accusations, will harm far more people than it protects
The problem with this to me is that many people in politics think gun owners HAVE a mental issueā¦ How many times have you seen a few guns called a āweapons cacheā? Or heard why would anyone āneedā one of those guns?
If someone canāt handle owning a gun, should they be allowed to drive a car? Be free in society?
That too.
I remember one news flash before I stopped watching the news where they arrested a fellow then searched his house. The āarsenalā they announced, with great drama and scandalized shock, was 2 hunting rifles, a shotgun suitable for trap, and 3 handguns, one of them an antique. Plus āover 400 rounds of ammoā.
I donāt remember what he was arrested for, but I do remember thinkingā¦ Geez, does the guy evenpractice?
So if studies find that psychologists canāt predict or diagnose disorders with reliable accuracy then do we just hope weāre not one of the ones miss diagnosed. I know this was done in the 70ās but I am trusting government less and less everyday.
Iād forgotten about that study @Sheepdog556ā¦ now that you remind me, I recall how scary that information is. Personally, Iāve seen folks who had legit issues end up with 7 or 8 different diagnoses, and several dozen different medications before they got onto what was actually happening and how to address it. Much as I have respect for many of the folks doing the hard work of psychiatry and psychology, many of them are not doing a great job. Iām afraid itās not something that can ever get down to any sort of exact science, and the degree to which misdiagnosis and mistreatment goes on is deeply frightening when you consider that even well trained folks get it wrong a lot. How does a judge or a jury have a chance of getting it right?
Having someone declare you crazy or unfit, when what you are is simply not-PC or mainstream, is a very scary proposition. Add to that malicious accusations as yet another option for things to go horribly wrong and itās the stuff nightmares are made of.
I have played many violent video games and have watch violent cartoons like Tom and Jerry, Road Runner, and violent movies and more. Iām 65 years old. And Iām not a violent person. I know itās a game or cartoonās are a movie and put that under Mental Illness. Itās a good why to get a sick conversation going. And in Indiana your back ground check includes all of that. And your regulation of violent video games, dose that include movies. And what about sex in movies. I will tell you this, no video games, no violent movies and no movies with sex in it. You will have to turn off your TV and turn off my Game Cube. So I canāt watch TV I canāt play my Zelda games so the only thing left to do is go to the Range shoot the hell out of some Paper, I canāt do that, to much violent. Life is getting hard, just can have any FUN. LOL!!!
In my state, and in my line of work/occupation in healthcare, Iām one of many mandated reporters whoās required to file a report with the state police if I encounter a patient/client for whom thereās evidence of certain psychological conditions:
