Yeah, ok. “One truth” theocracy — pretty sure you’ve stumbled into the wrong country for that. Hope so, anyway.
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There is certainly room for compromise in politics and society, but only after delineating the bedrock, foundational principles which cannot be abrogated. That is the “line in the sand”. Anything on the other side of that line is up for discussion. In all forms of cooperative activity, compromise is the art of everybody getting a little of what they want. When everything is said and done, if nobody is completely happy it’s probably a pretty good deal.
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I think you might actually be serious. I didn’t “stumble into the wrong country.” I was born into the right country. It became the wrong one during my lifetime. As David38 stated, there is a “bedrock or foundational principles.” Those are being taken away from us one compromise at a time without really amending those principles. If you are happy with it, then we will always disagree.
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Yeah, I think I can go with that. That’s why it’s so handy to make those bedrock principles explicit — either at the outset of a social experiment as our founders attempted, or later when it becomes obvious that “everybody knows” is a useless anchor.
Even with a decent original “contract” it would not be unusual for instances of “everybody knows” to pop up and require clarification of the foundation. In our case, things like:
- what about diverse spiritual beliefs? (I)
- what about differences of opinion generally? (I)
- what about defense and security in the face of violence? (II)
- what about security against intrusive government? (III, IV)
- what about the administration of justice? (V, VI, VII, VIII, XI)
- what about the stuff we didn’t cover? (IX, X)
And it keeps going: - what about non-landowners? non-Europeans? women? slavery? taxation?
- who is a citizen, anyway?
- what about the fuzzy parts in elections and succession?
- what about beer? Never mind, we don’t care about beer.
- who is an adult?
And all of that is further supported by a system of legislated and adjudicated laws, elected representation, and public debate.
All of those clarifications becomes rocks in our foundation — but each requires negotiation and compromise to shape and place. And each will require monitoring and possibly adjustment to assure strength — which will require more negotiating and compromise. The alternative is open warfare at every disagreement, small or large — and that is a failed state, not a functioning society.
Nowhere in these foundations are some of the private lines people are trying to draw in the public sands these days. The specific rigid strictures of some privately held belief systems, are exactly that — private. They advise what choices an individual should make in the conduct of their personal affairs (and perhaps among the cohort of their common fellowship in a particular system). They shall not control, direct, nor restrain the personal affairs of others — particularly those others holding to a different belief system. That is a bedrock, foundational principal of the United States of America which cannot be abrogated.
Or so I hold.
That. But these days everybody seems hair-on-fire 
about everything which does not conform closely to their own thought bubble — that is a road to ruin.
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@techs , I can find no point of disagreement in your statement. 
I am firmly committed to the principle of personal freedom, coupled with personal responsibility. Compromise enters the equation only when considering individuals interacting within the public sphere—what I refer to as the Social Contract.
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The site says there was a solution reached? Only events like April 19, 1775 and April 12, 1861 ever address a solution at times of total disagreement on the direction our nation will take. As one of the writers of our founding documents said better than we have so far, " the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure. our Convention has been too much impressed by." Changing to a nation like the one pictured in the first post sounds like a with mask mandates or health papers to travel from point to point.
What impresses me is we have had only the original and one other rebellion in all of these years. I have no clue how close we have ever come before or how close we could be now. Maybe the system works better than we think? But in my opinion the posted solution suggest an ideology with rules that are void of any concept of liberty.
I may not advocate such a rebellion but it seems as if there are many willing to join a side. and if it breaks down into Capitalist or socialists I would have no problem supporting a side.
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Apparently, as the person who started this topic, I was offered the opportunity to identify a solution if one was offered.
I don’t really understand how the “solution” model operates in this forum, because is isn’t always present and this topic was not a specific “How do I turn my Glock into a decent pistol?” type of question.
But we beat on it for a while.
I thought @Shamrock came as close to offering a “solution” as was ever likely to arise — in Post #12 — so I picked it. The conversation has continued — as it should in a free society, because nothing is ever really completely done. That’s fine, but I don’t believe that a more appropriate conclusion has been offered.
Then I submit an interesting story as we come up on Thanksgiving. It weaves a tale along the lines of what made America great in the first place.
https://www.educationviews.org/the-american-pilgrims-disastrous-experiment-in-socialism/
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When everything is said and done, the best way to help make America great again is for each of us to strive to be a great American.
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Or, since this article is completely off-topic, you could start your own topic to discuss this interesting premise that indentured servitude to capitalist investors should be considered “socialism”.
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The trick to my “solution” is getting people to stop arguing and blaming everything on each other and start taking care of themselves and their families, neighbors, communities. People need to stop focusing on their differences and disagreements and start working together on the things we can agree on. In my experience, people on both sides of the political divide have a lot more in common than they are willing to admit. We just need to get past the intentionally divisive rhetoric.
I try that in my daily life. Respect other’s opinions and find common ground. It works every once in awhile but so many people are locked into their confirmation bias bubbles these days. I’m just not sure one person at a time will work fast enough to counter all the people and institutions profiting off all the anger and division.
Now if someone can figure out how to marginalize the dividers and open the lines of communication and cooperation on a bigger scale then that would be a real solution.
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Human nature being what it is you will always get resistance from those that are happy with the life they have made for themselves when they are preached at by those that envy what success they have. The concepts of people like the Fabian Society fly in the face of Thomas Payne, Jefferson, And even Washington.
Let us be real honest. Many here have decided to arm themselves and insure themselves against those that resent what we have or where we live. When the idea of taking what others have worked for is presented by those who haven’t worked for most of us are ready to curtail conversation and establish what is ours and what isn’t theirs. The question will always come down to what part of what someone else works for do others deserve? The answer from a capitalist is, only what is given freely. The answer by a Social Democrat is what ever we can tax you for. These are not ideas we can compromise on. It is a rooted belief system.
That is why your “Trick” solution as you called it so rarely works. In my opinion. And like the motto my challenge coin says, “This I will defend.”
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The “trick” to the status quo that has gotten us to the mess we see today is to use strong motivational tools like fear and hate, us vs them to redirect blame from those who are truly taking undue advantage of others. A system where those who have can work less and less for their ever bigger share of the pie while those who don’t have work harder and harder for the left over scraps is not fair or sustainable.
I am all for an honest days work for an honest days pay. And I have nothing against innovators and exceptional doers getting wealthy off their efforts. But not when they do it by pushing down the people working hard to make them rich.
Our capitalist system today is approaching the corruption levels of the Soviet Union just before its collapse. Instead of Olygarchs we have all powerful Corporations running the show behind the scenes. In many cases they keep all the profits when they succeed but get bailed out by us tax payers when they fail. The rich get richer and the hard working middle class falls further and further behind. That is not true capitalism.
The failure of Corrupt Capitalism to create a system where the majority can succeed is what drives people to other corrupt ideas like Communism.
I believe the kleptocrats and their backers get away with this by ramping up the Left/Right, Us/Them distraction machine. Our system is broken. $30 trillion in debt and growing is beyond unsustainable. Eventually things will break and no amount of guns and ammo will keep us safe from the chaos likely to follow. Unless, I believe, we work together against the corruption. Starting with getting off the Us/Them blame train.
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You don’t believe the summer of 2020 proved there is a Us vs them? Portland, Seattle and Minneapolis had none I consider us with burning, looting, and yes killing those they were supposed to represent.
People are crossing oceans and walking hundreds of miles to break the law to get into this evil capitalistic country. People are not fleeing to the paradise of social justice of and socialist country. So as bad as some try to make it, Capitalism seems better than the other systems.
Some of us fired 155 mm shells at other humans simply for wearing different uniforms it is not a big stretch to imagine them not feeling that the US is all that evil. Capitalism rebuilt Europe after WW2. Socialism has not produced the same quality of life. Remember Venezuela and Nicaragua were the college poster child of democratic Socialism but look at them today?
There is nothing keeping anyone in the US if they want to try socialism? They can leave and find a non capitalist country. But we shouldn’t hold our breath.
Personally I will watch with great interest how gross liberalism works out in Portland and Seattle. We can see for ourselves if the concept of equity of results works out.
It is just that unlike your statement I don’t see a lot of agreement between us. Which is your right. I will just never join the anti American Capitalist movement.
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This is exactly my point. You don’t know me yet based on a few of my words you seem to have lumped me in with the Socialist/Antifa crowd? So anyone who does not hail Capitalism and says it can do no wrong must be a Socialist?? Do you see no corruption and failures in our society? Or are those failures all just a Democrat/Communist plot against all the incorruptible Republican “Patriots” in DC?
The America you allude to was the one that my parents and I were fortunate enough to grow up in. Not the one my son is growing up in today. While some of those emigrating to our country (legally and illegally) may be after the ever harder to achieve American Dream, I suspect most are just trying to get away from their failed states so that they can provide for their families. Some of those state failures being a direct result of our failed (often corporate motivated) foreign policies. There are far more people trying to get into the far more Socialist European countries than trying to get into our Capitalist utopia.
It is my understanding that permanent corporations weren’t even allowed in this country before the civil war. You could form a temporary one to build a bridge or building etc. but once that was done so was the corporation. There was a fear that permanent corporations would become too powerful. Now this has become a country of the corporation, by the corporation and for the corporation. With the “promise” for us little people being that if corporations profit then everyone else will. How has that worked out for American factory workers over the last few decades? All those new minimum wage no benefit service jobs that replaced the off shored factory jobs sure don’t seem like a step up to me.
America was founded on great ideals and principles. All men are created equal and entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, etc. It has lived up to those ideals better than most if not all other nation in the past. It has also failed to live up to those standards on many occasions and we are paying the price for some of those failures today. More disturbing now is it is being torn apart from within by corruption and division.
None of the previous ists or isms have succeeded long term without eventually falling to greed and corruption. The psychopaths and sociopaths always seem to rise to power. Looks like we are going to let them win again.
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Your words tell a lot about you. As mine do about me. Are there corrupt corporations? Sure. Are there corrupt politicians? Yes again. That being said what I saw in my fellow citizens last year told me a lot as well. I for one see no value in people that burn down whole city centers destroying what little the people living there had to express rage at injustices that happened generations before most of us were born.
I also worry about my children having to face a new America but one that is being pushed by the progressive left so that hard working people can pay to give people that came here illegally can have “free” our tax money, Free college, our Tax money. Ahh tax the rich some say? What if you have a program and the rich move? It’s ok tax the next in line till it gets to your kids.
Capitalism can fuel social programs but socialism can’t finance a economy like we have or had. And as far as people moving to reap the benefits of socialism? Look to the numbers.
Do these people realize something some of our people don’t?
That is why I say we don’t have much in common with social Democrats. I find the statement from the left disingenuous. To socialist it means come over to our way and I can promise you that isn’t going to happen. We have been at odds with that idea for far too long. It it takes seed and isn’t stopped we are finished as a nation.
Remember it wasn’t the rich or the corporations that burned Portland for 100 nights straight. It’s was the left.
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I probably agree with a good portion of your position. But I would say it was the long deteriorating economic conditions compounded by the failed responses to Covid that piled up the kindling that a very small portion of people in this country decided to throw matches on both in places like Portland and at the Capital.
I know a lot of people on both sides of the aisle. I don’t personally know anyone on the left that thinks burning things down or turning to socialism is the answer. If you define the opinions of groups based solely on the behaviors of a few members at the extremes then all the voices in the middle go unheard.
I almost hate to point it out but the stated goal of the marchers was in response to perceived injustices by a few in places 3000 miles away. The damage was done to the very community they were supposed to be representing. The marchers gave cover to looting, burning and even murder. They posted their socialist goals in the paper and on the internet and they caused as much as two billion dollars of damage. They were accepted and even got their name painted as a monument to their lawlessness. Looking at the long history of Antifa I would hope someone would see why smaller communities sent armed citizens to back their police when a March was planned.
The tactics were pure Marxist and the founders of the movements never denied it. Such an affront to traditional valves will never bring most of us to the discussion table.
I ask what could we have in common with such ideology? I say again there is way more we don’t have in common than anytime since the 60s.
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I would say the vast majority of us on the Right, Left and Middle have very little in common with people who destroy, loot, burn or murder.
It is my experience that people with selfish personal agendas and warped ideologies tend to be very good at manipulating others fears and prejudices to get their way. They are also often very good at rising to positions of power over the rest of us who just want to provide good lives for ourselves and our families. I see this happening again and again on both sides of the political divide.
You seem to be describing a very black and white world were everyone on the “Left” is a lazy, destructive socialist and everyone on the “Right” is a hard working, constructive Patriot. All I can see is a world with infinite shades of grey. So on that point we are definitely worlds apart.
I think it is time to stop hijacking @techs thread and let others take part in the conversation.
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I can accept the stalemate on this subject. I will also let it go because my opinion has been expressed.
Let me make one observation on our two perspectives of Black and white vs gray. You have a very generous vision of the motives of the masses of people marching in our cities last year. If I accept that a small minority was causing all of the looting and destruction as you seem to believe then I will say we were brought up differently. After the very first night of looting, burning and even murder I was brought up to believe anyone with a moral compass would disassociate themselves with the March every day after the first.
Every day after the first tells me they were complicit, in agreement or obtuse. Because the founders and planners of the marches were from the left professing ideologies aligned with communists and socialists my view may be slanted towards the whole group.
I am sorry we are as divided on the issue as we are but I have stated my reasons.
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