^^^ very good point.
I didn’t think about that. From the CCW class I attended, I think I remember that we’re not, and the very quickest of Google searches…
"Wisconsin law allows deadly force in self-defense in the limited circumstances where the person defending themselves “reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm” to their person. Importantly, some states impose a duty to retreat from a conflict, but Wisconsin is not among them. However, Wisconsin does allow juries to consider whether a defendant could have retreated in determining whether the use of deadly force was “necessary.”
" Three years ago, the Wisconsin state legislature passed the 2011 Wisconsin Act 94, which laid out the rights of a person to defend themselves in their home, office, or car, a law commonly referred to as the “Castle Doctrine.” However, the defendant in a recent case discovered that when a person pushes that right too far, criminal charges can often result."
I’ll look further in a bit.
For thr purposes of me being there as a board member, I think that covers me by way of being my office. AA meetings and quilting are different story though.
Maybe an argument can be made for me, at least at this point, that there’s only a suspicion… a imagined risk if you will at this point due to no direct threats? But then again, if I was worried enough to buy a gun and get my CC permit, I should have gone to the police? The jury might find that prosecution argument quite compelling.
I definitely need to ponder this further before carrying in that building.
I have a brother in law sherriff for the county I live in that I’m far from being close with, but should suck it up and go talk to when he’s off duty, about what they could theoretically do in this situation before I contact authorities.
Even if I just stopped attending meetings, if my imagined scenario were to happen, maybe I could also be in trouble for not contacting police about my fears (I mean, this whole thread here is evidence at this point), not to mention the guilt I would would have.
While it’s always important to keep the law in mind, (Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer) I would imagine you are in the clear here. You are lawfully allowed to be where you are, and your fear of what this person might do doesn’t mean you have to never go there again. He’s already been there X times and not shot anyone and he may continue to go another X times and not shoot anyone. You carry a firearm specifically because one day you might need it.
The duty to retreat will usually come into play in the moments leading up to violence, not days/weeks/months before it happens. For example, you all are in the room, he starts escalating, draws his weapon… Your choice is could you do a tuck 'n roll out the door or draw your firearm and shoot? If you have an exit and choose not to take it, then a prosecutor might take you to task for it (doesn’t mean they’ll win though). On the other hand if there is only one door and he’s blocking it, theres no duty to retreat. Or if by leaving that means everyone else in the room will die and they have no means of escape, there’s no duty to retreat. The answer is always always “it depends”.
I do think it’s important for you to notify someone though. Whether it’s a brother-in-law, your local police/sheriff, building management, heck is there a church with a priest nearby? It’s partially about covering your arse if it goes sideways, but its also about getting this guy the help he needs. It sounds like he needs way more help than AA can provide. AND it might keep him from going on a murder spree, because it might not just be the folks in the AA building, it could be his neighbors, random folks at the grocery store, etc.
This is one of those times I think “maybe red flags laws have their place”, but then I quickly realize that they’d just forcibly take his guns and leave him there still not getting the help he needs. Leaving an already angry man even angrier and ready to lash out at “whoever did this to him”.
I was a member of a Homeowner’s Association some years back that had turned into a similar condition. Our solution was to hold our meetings at the local Police Station. As far as I know, the station did not charge us for use of the facilities, and provided armed security at our meetings. Might be worth checking into?
That makes more sense. I feel I keep ricocheting from one thought to the next about this all.
That makes even more sense.
Speaking of which, I just contacted an attorney that deals with gun laws and criminal defense for an appointment. I am so leery of going to the police (even an off duty brother in law) to even ask them questions about this. I appreciate having law enforcement, but don’t necessarily trust them with some things for whatever reason. I’m also the kind of a-hole person who will, and has, denied giving them my ID in situations they do not need it. I’d rather get and pay for information from a lawyer first before going down that rabbit hole.
Is there anyone here who doesn’t have a box of unused holsters they thought was a good idea at the time? Ha.
Hey Lola, be of good cheer. You’ll find the right holster, but it’s an iterative process, it may take a while.
My favorite holster is a Kydex, because of the positive weapon retention … it “snaps” when secure in the holster. However, it prints a little more than I care for, so I often use a Sticky Holster. A properly-sized Sticky Holster will provide adequate trigger protection. They’re comfortable tucked inside a waistband, or in the small tactical bag I carry to/from work. I’ve been told the “sticky” will wear out at some point, I haven’t reached that point after almost 2 years. I’m totally satisfied.
My other pieces of wisdom, for what they’re worth: (1) Don’t “cheap out.” My Kydex holster was $80+, worth every penny. (2) Practice, practice, practice. There are lots of good dry-fire tools out there. Whether it’s snap caps, BarrelBlok, or the LASR app, there are lots of options to practice taking your firearm from concealment to action in a safe way.
I’m jealous you have only one box!
Zee, wise words indeed. Carrying every day has given me a sense of peace. Not bravado … I’m not a cowboy. But knowing the laws, knowing that I am well-trained, knowing that my weapon is reliable and that I can deploy it if needed, all of that gives me confidence.
The fact that I carry also enhances my senses. Because I have a loaded weapon, I am responsible for every round it contains. I’m much more aware of my surroundings, activities. I’m much more likely to recognize danger and remove myself and my loved ones from that situation. So for me, it’s not as much fear but rather diligence.
I feel this sentiment rapidly welling up in me since just buying my gun about two weeks ago, and even though I have not been able to CC yet with it.
I’ve been too not-afraid of situations historically. I think I wrote this above somewhere, but I’ve delivered pizzas in ghettos in the wee hours of the morning, I’ve walked through truck stop parking lots at night without a care in the world, I’ve done uber/lyft in a metropolis at all hours of the day and night - all without any fear whatsoever. Now, I’m already thinking twice. None of those occupations would allow me to carry, but I’ve been wondering if there would be any consequences for doing so, other than just simply being fired from said jobs (mainly uber/lyft). I’m also being more aware of my surroundings, and thinking ahead to going to places where the risk of harm are greater and carrying while being there.
It’s almost as though just having a gun has made me paranoid. Most people would probably just call that common sense awareness or something, but coming from a proud, brave woman, this is really a new feeling for me.
And I say “proud, brave woman” because that is how I felt. People DAILY would ask me while uberlyfting if I was scared to do this job (with trucking also, but not that often). My first retort (that I didn’t vocalize) was that it was quite the sexist question (I doubt many ever ask men this question, but I realize it’s not so much sexist as it’s just a legit question given how much easier I could be overtaken by a person compared to a man who’s larger than me, and asked with true concern) but would reply that I just wasn’t scared. This caused me to feel proud that I am not living my life in such fear.
But here I am now, in fear, and looking to CC. I think I’m coming to the realization that I have been reckless with my safety, and that pride probably had a lot to do with it.
@bulldog. I have more holsters than I could count. My wife says I have more holsters than she has pairs of shoes
^^^ that is the self-defense mindset you want. Self-defense is not just about having a gun, but about having the mind engaged to make sure your choices, actions, preparation, and training are really where they should be to give you the ability to defend yourself… or to not need to.
It hasn’t made you paranoid… it’s made you aware of the realities of the world you were not paying attention to before.
It’s not braver to be oblivious… its just oblivious. The awareness you’re finding now is one of seeing the real world, and preparing for the real world, and THAT is an act of bravery in itself. And something to be proud of
@Paul1 yes, exactly.
Not a sense of dreamy unconcern, but a sense of eyes-wide-open peace.
Not because I am unaware of the risks, but because I am grounded in the real world, with the best knowledge and skill I can bring to the deeply important business of protecting my own life and the lives of those I love.
They all are still, good Sir, it depends on the day, my going to the wall, taking a moment to decide if today it’s going to be natural leather or dark havana? At least that’s how I justify the crate of holsters.
Are you legally present and acting in a lawful manner?
No, you don’t have culpability simply because the situation makes you uncomfortable about your own safety and safety of others under the laws of any state I’m aware of.
From what you’ve described you are taking the logical and responsible approach.
If you have any friends in LE locally you might consider getting one of them to attend off duty and in civvies just to get a read on this guy and get their opinion as to whether or not you should consider taking further steps.
As far as I know you are right here. In every state I’m aware of the duty to retreat is specific to the case at hand “in the moment”.
You might have a real hard time getting AA members to be willing to attend meetings at a Police Station as some if not most are probably in AA as a result of interactions with police prior such as getting a PI or DUI.
^^ excellent idea
You mentioned living in Wisconsin and wearing layers of clothing for winter. I dont know how you normally dress but I can imagine a shoulder holster would work for you. This would also help to not draw suspicion of a new tactical purse or fanny gun pouch.
Sounds like you are all sitting around talking so a shoulder holster would be simple to draw from. Hmmm Group meetings in a small room with one door out…definitely mace is out of the question. I want to suggest a small powerful pocket taser in case a situation breaks out were people are grappling with this individual. Just an idea. The main thing here is be armed, get training, go to the shooting range and know your laws. People that dont CCW have no idea it’s not about carrying a gun. It’s a mind set and way of life.