Do you shoot IDPA or USPSA?

Firearm Training
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SHOOTING IDPA
You need to find a Gun Club, nearest you, that sponsors IDPA matches.
Go to the IDPA Web Site and look up clubs - listed by State.
Get phone # or go see.

It is a standard “type” of format for IDPA STAGES.
Depends on how many Pistol Bays a Club has.
At my club we have 6 Pistol Bays so for IDPA MATCHES
we typically have 6 Stages.

You can shoot a Qualifier to get Qualified as - Novice, Marksman, Sharp-Shooter, Ex, etc
BUT - You do NOT have to shoot a Qualifier to shoot in a match.
You can shoot as UN - Un-qualified. At our club anyway.
Main thing about shooting a match is “Gun Handling Safety”.
You need to know the “Hard” Rules.
Muzzle Discipline, Finger, etc.
NO Unholstered Gun Unless - “On the Line” Under supervision/direction of an S.O.(Safety Officer).
Many if not Most matches will have a Safe Handling & Rules etc meeting before the match.
We have a “New Shooters” meeting before every match. Cover Safe Handling Rules, Shooting Rules,
Scoring, etc.

Typically, most stages are “House Clearing” Format type stages.
aka “Shoot House” similar to what Sp Forces train in.
Involves use of “Cover”- And other CQB (Close Qtr Battle) Tactics
ie “Cover” vs “Concealment” and the differences:

Typically Walls to form Rooms and thus Room Corners etc.
Doorways, windows, etc, more.

Targets : Man-size-& Ht - Target Stands with Threat Targets and Non-threats thrown in
here and there. Non-threats often - in front of - Threat Targets - you may only
have a Head Shot available on the Threat. Sometimes Moving Threats with
Non-Threats in front of. Sometimes Both moving.

Typical 2 shots/Threat Required. Can vary though.

AND Hit a Non-Threat(HNT) and you are penalized - in a serious way. All based on Time to complete the stage.
More Time added for Tot Miss + 5sec, Less Time added for close-miss/ie Just a wounded threat + 1-3 sec.

Total miss on threat target = add 5 sec. to your time.

Hit on a Non-Threat(HNT) Add + 5 seconds to your time.

Shortest “Time” to clear house/Stage wins.
All - Good - Action Training.
Shoot and move. Sometimes while-moving. Sometimes 1 hand only. L & R.

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I shoot IDPA. But my LGS that our IDPA competes at does not have shoot houses. What you described is a shoot house. I’ve trained on shoot houses in my past in the military. But that takes a level of $ that I don’t have access to shoot as a civilian.

What I was asking, does the IDPA provide that kind of funding? But reading your reply seems to indicate a no.

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I used to shoot IDPA quite a bit but not a lot lately. The key is to look at each stage as a training exercise and shoot it like your life depends on it using actual SD tactics and like folks are shooting back at you. If you do this you’ll probably come in the middle of the pack in standings. Basically score better than lesser shooters and and score under the folks that game the stages to go faster.

The only problem is that in time it gets frustrating to constantly “lose” and I started to go along with the “cut corners” gaming crowd for better scores and that hurt my real life training, so I quit.

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That’s how I shoot IDPA stages. As if they were training scenarios. Multiple individualized SD scenarios. I’m a competitive person but it’s more important to me to utilize those scenarios as training.

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Another way to look at it is to separate it into just raw shooting and gun handling ability. Don’t look at it as training for how you’ll handle a real life situation. Fundamentally you have to balance speed and precision in the shooting games and in self defense. You can use shooting games to push the envelope of what you’re capable. Then you have to back that up with training specific to self defense.

Shooting games like IDPA and USPSA, to do well you need to shoot faster and more accurately than your opponent. While performing under stress, from awkward positions, on the move, from cover and clear malfunctions all on the clock. All skills that seem useful to me.

There is a reason a lot of the top competitive shooters train LEO’s and Military even with out a background in those areas. At the end of the day, shooting is shooting and you’re either good at it or your not.

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I ABSOLUTELY understand what you are saying and agree that the skills practiced are certainly useful but I do not find it necessary to try to perfect these skills in competition. I own a timer and can run it with the best of them all by myself, I can do 1,000 reloads at home, and I can actually practice just about all my shooting skills without leaving my living room except for the actual pew-pew part which is a very small part of the overall set of skill. But yes, I agree that shooting skills are not what I’m talking about. and none of this stops me from enjoying these comps from time to time for fun or recommending that folks do it as fun/practice.

My contention with constant competition as a basis for “training” comes from the subjectivity from one person/officer/game to another in judging use of cover, how to address multiple targets, how many shots to stop a threat etc. Many of the competitors I saw at the top in IDPA ran the stages like they were shooting at stationary targets that had no chance of shooting back, which is exactly what you have in competition shooting at paper, and what you need to do to “win”. But my issue is that doing this forms habits that can become ingrained and get you killed if performed in real time.

For example, in IDPA I’m TOLD how many rounds I need to put into a target in any given stage to score well. When I train by myself or with my wife and others, I use visualization and every target I address gets as many rounds as I visualize the threat needs to be stopped. It could be one, it could be 10. I do not program myself to 2 shots per target and move on, because again, that can get you killed in real life.

Another example, my wife shot a stage with me fresh back from training, again using what she knows and trained for. When she was done one of the top competitors in the group came to talk to me to point out that my wife has a terrible flinch and how she’s dumping low shots on targets and that is costing her penalties. His recommendation was that I buy her a more suitable gun in a less powerful chambering because her Kimber UltraCarry .45 full of +P ammo was obviously beyond her capabilities. :rofl:

I thanked him for his observation and moved on. BUT, my wife does NOT have a flinch. She was visualizing targets coming at her and if two shots did not stop them she would put one or two into the pelvic girdle which will absolutely put the threat down on the ground. And believe me her 25oz 1911 may be beyond many men’s capabilities but you do NOT want to test my wife, she is DEADLY with hers. In any case her performance that day did not score well with IDPA rules/scoring, but what she was doing was 100% correct and very much in line with her real life professional training.

In any case, this observation was actually offered to me originally by a mentor who does this for real for a living. He hunts and kills bad people and trains elite personnel and has personally taken many of the classes you mention from high level IDPA and USPSA shooters looking to improve his shooting techniques. But he distinctly separates this from any kind of tactical training he might get or teach. There is a serious difference.

Once, I dragged him kicking and screaming to an actual IDPA comp with me and as predicted his score was just above half the pack, but he illustrated this point exactly when a bunch of the competitors that had no idea who he is or his background stated coming around (with the best of intentions) to swamp him with 'tips" on how to run the stages faster. He also courteously thanked every one of them and still shot the stages like he normally trains.

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At My Club - We -the club - “Sponsor” IDPA Matches. 1 every month.
And have Temp Walls, etc we erect on Match Day - on Outside Pistol Bays.
We(the Club) own all stage equipment and materials needed to set up stages and run matches.
Including electronic tablets for scoring, etc.
Scores are usually posted a few hrs after finish.
We set up 5-6 Stages every month for IDPA. All outside.
SO - A “Shoot House”/s - Without a Roof :slight_smile:
Actually 5-6 Stages - See below.
On 5-6 diff pistol bays. 1 Stage/Bay.
So 5-6 Shoot Houses/Stage - all different layout.
Rain, snow, sleet or shine.
“A man needs to know how his gun will run with water pouring out his barrel.” :slight_smile:
Or Frozen :slight_smile: And I def do.
Public welcome. “New Shooter” Must take “New Shooter Class”.
$20 match fee for all shooters.
Typical we have say 80 shooters.
We/The Club have Storage Bldgs for Walls, Tables, and other needed props and Equip- All - Club Owned.
And a small tractor we use to help with set up. Also for 3gun plate-rack setup.
A “Club” - IDPA Match Dir and Committee who run all IDPA things.

Stages:
WALLS made of 2x2 wood Frame, 8ft long x 7ft ht, and plastic screening between with 2 separate, removable, metal stands - 1 at each end. 1 man “can carry” a wall, 8ft x 4ft. But Takes 2 to install a wall stand on ea end and stand it up.
New stages designed every mo. by IDPA Match Dir.
And Stages Layout issued to all registered shooters for that month.

Lot of shooting from Wall Corners - As “Cover”.
And “Tactical Cover Rules” Apply.
“Break Cover” - ie Get too far out/exposed - From Cover - and get penalized. Say 3 sec.

Likewise for HNT - Each - “Hit on a Non-Threat”.
You learn to stay “Behind Cover” - while Shooting.
And NOT-Shoot Non-threats.
AND shoot “Tactical Priorities”. 1st threat in view from Cover or Near-to-Far - “In Open”.
Penalties if you Dont shoot in Proper “Tactical Order”. Usually “Outside to Inside” or “Near to Far”.
Sound familiar?
“I” dont “shoot to win” - I Shoot to be ready for the day “Leroy” tries to “take me on” or ambush me.

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There is a lot to unpack there. First I certainly agree it doesn’t make sense to try to perfect your skills in competition. I think of it more as a way to test skills I perfect in practice. Like you I mostly train by myself and use a timer when appropriate. I dry fire daily, and hit the range once or twice a week. I might shoot one or two matches a month. The vast majority of my work is alone or with a friend.

I don’t see the being told how many rounds to shoot as really a big deal. You said you decide what you want to shoot then visualize and execute it. In a match someone else decides what you need to shoot, then you visualize and execute. Most targets are two, but occasionally they’ll do odd numbers to try to mess you up. some times even different numbers or rounds per target with in a stage. A good shooter doesn’t have problems with that, I personally have zero concern I’ll just shoot two and think the situation is over. But, I shoot and train a lot like most good competitive shooters.

I do think IDPA’s scoring structure is to strict for a sport that has defense in the name. USPSA’s hit factor score, while more complex is much better. But at the end of the day it’s all balancing speed and precision. Just in IDPA the target is basically a 8" circle and anything else isn’t really acceptable.

I also know IDPA’s rules can be confusing, this can be a good thing as it can force you to think on the fly trying to recover from something not going as planned. While USPSA does care about things like if or how you use cover, what order you shoot or when you reload.

The big thing you’re missing IMO by not competing is the performing under pressure. No matter what you do on the range alone, you can’t simulate the pressure of competition. And if you do compete and go in deciding ahead of time you’re not going to be serious, or you’re going to finish poorly because you’re going to treat it like a self defense situation. Those are great ways to help mitigate the pressure. If you really want to learn to preform under pressure you need to take it seriously.

Starting out it’s a lot of pressure for a new shooter to just shoot while a few people are watching. Then you get pressure from trying to beat your peers. Once you get to Master or Grand Master, now shooters are going to expect things from you. They’ll come over when you’re up to watch you shoot. Much more pressure now. Then when you’re in contention to win a club match, it builds more. In the running for a State or Regional Championship win. That stuff I know from experience, I can’t imagine the pressure of being in the running to win a National or World Championship. Is this the same as self defense pressure? No, but it’s probably as close as you’re going to be able to get with out being in real danger.

My state just became shall issue thanks to NY. That’ll likely go away in 6 months, but for the last almost year now I’ve been running a range qualifying people for their CCW some weekends. I’ve probably seen over a 1k people since just since Bruen. The average shooter at our IDPA matches are safer and better shooters than 99.9% of the people I see getting permits.

I like that you drug your face shooter friend to a match. That tells me he doesn’t have his ego in check. I’m sure in his mind he knows he’s better than the IT guys and accountants he’s shooting against. But, the reality is those guys probably train raw shooting skills way more than he has and that’s why they’re going to beat him when given a stage that tests your shooting skills objectively.

These days, there are lots of guys in Military/LEO who not only see the benefits for competition but do so regularly on a vary high level.
.

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Wow… You are making some broad assumptions that do not apply at all about people you don’t know anything about.

I don’t feel pressure when I train, and I don’t feel pressure when I compete. I feel very comfortable with my skills in either case a just perform as best as I can, always looking to improve.

My mentor/friend is one of the best shooters I know. His average range sessions by himself and with his team(s) run daily when they are not “working” or he’s not teaching, and they include skills the “competitive shooters” will never get to try.

Ever try to shoot accurately after letting go of a flash bang? Ever had 6 guys running around in the same range as you, shooting targets 360° around them? Shoot between two of your team mates while clearing out a shooting house with live fire? Shooting at each other with simunitions? All of these are fun and if you do them your pulse won’t race at all while shooting a stage at the local club.

When we train, we start with multiple 50 cal cans full of loose training ammo in his truck and mine, and when I train with him we shoot until a can is empty or we’re bleeding on the guns. There is NO one in any of the competitions with finer gun skills than him. I know how he plays he could have easily embarrassed everyone on the range that day.

In any case, If I have a choice to go “play” for the day with a bunch of guys on IDPD, or driving my car onto the range and practice team tactics with the boys or with my wife (who is highly trained too) guess where I’m headed. IDPA is a game. A fun and useful game, but a game.

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Anyone know any IDPA stages that involves throwing yourself to the ground with a loaded carbine and shooting at threats while using your tires as cover? No?!?!?

So yeah, I’d rather be training without the lawyers and doctors observing my game.

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Well you can’t say you don’t feel pressure when you compete if you’ve never competed. Yes, never competed, because you haven’t really. You said you go in and treat it like self defense and finish middle of the pack. The pressure comes from caring about how you do. I do like that you assume everyone below you is a lesser shooter and everyone above you is just gaming. Funny how that works right? You just happen to fall perfectly in the middle. Glad you don’t make broad assumptions.

Yes, I have dove to the ground in IDPA with a loaded carbine to shoot around cars. On the clock and then measure against others who did the same.

don’t kid yourself, you’d rather be training in a situation you can’t loose.

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Yep. I’m good, thanks!

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Not really though.

From your posts it seems you don’t really respect competition or competitive shooters. You finishing mid pack in idpa is telling to your shooting ability. You can flash bang you buddies all you want, doesnt mean you can shoot.

You being a employee here i can only assume your attitude is a reflection of uscca and DD. I am glad i have a year to decide if i want to support such a narrow minded company. If you don’t respect us while should we respect you?

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Agreed, one of the draw backs to comp. Shooting as your only training. It’s still great trigger time. And allot of fun.

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And you seem to draw a whole lot of conclusions and assumptions about folks you don’t know at all. The USCCA is a world class organization and they love their members and their members love them. I don’t work here, did for a while and had a blast, thanks or reminding me to cleanup my profile.

I have a lot of respect for most real competitive shooters. But there is a huge difference between playing games a training for reality. Most folks can see that, you can’t. This is now a useless circular discussion and I’m sure you’ll need to get in your last word so go ahead. I’m done.

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Your bio is vary misleading. It says your Delta Defense staff and a USCCA instructor.

I do see the differences between games and self defense. But I think because you look down on competitive shooters you missed my point. Go back and read what I posted. I agreed with you that you should train regularly and that competitions aren’t training. I probably called them a test or similar. I pointed out that like you the vast majority of my work is done outside of a competition environment. But unlike you I can see the benefit of using that competition environment to my advantage. I even pointed out additional flaws I saw you didn’t mention , like the scoring system.

I can speculate, you probably got hung up on my ego comment. You may not know this, we all have a ego even your friend. Ego can drive someone to compete, it can just as easily keep them from it. It’s a real gut check to realize you’re not that good and not everyone can handle that. I find getting my but kicked is a great way to learn. Shooting alone on the range you’re in a little bubble that you need to escape from time to time.

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So maybe we started out on the wrong foot. I cleaned up my bio so there is no confusion. I will also offer that you’re new here so maybe take some time to look around, read some posts and actually get to know some folks before you assume anything about them. I do not disrespect any competitive shooters. Hell, if my wife would let me I’d have a poster of Jerry Miculek in our house :grin:.

Please understand that when I address this group foremost in mind that most folks here just picked up their first SD gun a few weeks ago so many of my comments are offered in that light addressed to THEM.

I’m very protective of that segment of the population, and I just don’t want them to think they can go to a couple of IDPA matches, get some advise from people who might, or most likely might NOT know what they are talking about, not know the difference, and feel like they are now ready to rumble out on the streets.

I’ve seen some amazing shooters in matches, some better than myself, and I have picked up some nice pointers from them because I have no problems approaching them and asking and they are always happy to share their “secrets”.

I’ve also seen, way too many times for my taste, folks getting escorted out of matches because they were a hazard to the group, one of them put two rounds from an Glock 17 he had LITERALLY just bought, into the ground next to my and the ROs feet, so he gave me another reason as to why I tend to stay away from crowds of unknowns.

I will apologize if I came across arrogant, that was not my intent. So let’s shake hands and call it good, deal?

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It’s all good, I got a little snippy myself. I think there is a ton of common ground here.

I can understand the safety concerns you can never really be to careful. I do find for the most part matches to be vary safe with redundant safety rules. You can get sent home without really putting anyone in danger, which IMO is how it should be. I’ve personally be DQ’d twice for AD’s both from light triggers and little to much excitement. Both were fired safely into the berm, one almost hit the target lessons were learned.

I do know a few guys who shot themselves in matches. All were drawing or holstering, all could just as easily happen at the range training for self defense. Did you hear about the guy who was killed at a match in NY a year or two back? Shooter dropped his gun while holstering, gun went off on impact and killed the RO standing behind him. Another thing that could really happen anywhere. If there is one thing I’ve learned, you can never be to careful holstering a loaded firearm.

Public ranges…now that terrifies me.

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Private ones can be a hoot too. I took a group of students to one of my ranges to do a CC certification (in my state those are a joke :scream:), and when I got there a very serious member of the local Sheriff department told me we needed to stay out for a bit because they were conducting an investigation in a shooting in the range.

So I put my folks away in their cars after explaining what was going on and went back to see if I could help. At the point the LEO opened up and turning his back on my group he chuckled and admitted to me some dude shot him self in the ass trying to do some high speed “holstering”.

Needless to say we swiftly transformed that into a teachable moment for the new gun owners.

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If anyone is being disrespectful, brother man. It’s definitely you.

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