Convience Store Robbery - Hypothetical Sceanario

[James]

*Note for everyone

I did not post the 4 rules as a deterrent for everyone to not protect your loved ones or the people around you, I posted them so people knew them, and to get people to apply the thought to other scenarios they have.

[Robert5]

And many thanks for your posting them James. I wasn’t deterred.

[Jane2]

The old one warning shot to the head trick.

[Aaron25]

@Robert5

Just for debates sake, doesn’t it make our battle cry of, “if there were a few concealed carry people there less people would be killed in mass shootings?”

While I hope that this would indeed be the case, this is not that situation. This is an armed robbery.
From what I’ve found–this has about a 30% of this ending in violence. https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6558&context=jclc
While by it’s nature a mass shooting involves violence, 30% chance of violence in a robbery is higher a likelihood than I expected. Does knowing this change anyone’s decision?

[Justin29]

I totally agree with you.my wife works at a tobacco store and has been robbed twice in as many months.unfortunatly I wasn’t there,had I been it would have been game on.i will protect my family and myself at all cost

[Zavier_D]

@Aaron25

No, not my circus, not my . IF he is acting rational and only there for the stuff.

If his demeanor is such, or his actions are such that I can articulate to a prosecutor and a jury that I was in fear of death or great bodily harm for my self or others and there were simply no other options. Then he has made it my circus, and he has made it my .

Then I will make decisions based off of that new information.

@Robert5

Am I envious of the guy in the Concealed Carry Magazine that stopped the kidnapping. No, I am not. Am I glad he was there. Yes I am.

[Stan]

I fail to see an armed robber as acting in a rational manner. I fail to see the act of pointing a gun at someone as being a rational action, unless it is done in defense.

[Zavier_D]

@Stan

At no point in the scenario, as described, does it say he pointed the gun at anybody. It says

@Gary_H

the person in front of you pulls a gun on the cashier and demands cash from the drawer. You are carrying concealed and know you could have the drop on the perpetrator, but notice his/her finger is not on the trigger - it is extended right beside the slide.

@Zavier_D

Probably would discretely draw gun and cover with coat, or hat.

He starts getting squirrelly and he puts me in fear of failing to get home. Now he’s making it my circus and my .

Self defense, not stuff defense.

@Zavier_D

As I mentioned in my first post. I’m going to observe. Be a good witness. Then if it looks like it’s going to go sideways, then I will make my decision to intervene.

@Zavier_D

If his demeanor is such, or his actions are such that I can articulate to a prosecutor and a jury that I was in fear of death or great bodily harm for my self or others and there were simply no other options. Then he has made it my circus, and he has made it my .

Now we can what if this all over the place. But I am answering the original scenario as it was presented.

If I involved myself, first and foremost I have to make sure my round doesn’t hit the clerk, I am going to check to see if he has an accomplice. I also need to be pretty sure I am going to be able to make a one shot neurological stop or risk the robber shooting the clerk.

Then the worst what if of all. What if the clerk has a gun and decides to take his chances. You really think him seeing 2 guys with guns isn’t going to make him take a shot or 4 at you.

[Aaron25]

@Gary_H

the person in front of you pulls a gun on the cashier

I took this as pointing the gun at the cashier.
And your worst what if–yeah, I thought about that as well, but I’d bet the bad guy would shoot him dead–hard to win a draw on a drawn weapon.
Here we are–a bunch of armchair quarterbacks spending days on something that would have been over in seconds. If this doesn’t highlight the need to think these things through ahead of time and train, train, train.

[Zavier_D]

I actually went to the range and was working from draw to headshot at 21 feet. I got to under just 2 seconds.

As I have mentioned I am not going to sit idly by and watch someone get murdered.

But think about it for a second. You are basically talking about shooting a man in the back of the head. No warning just pop.

In almost every single “Ask an Attorney” webinar, Tom Grieve, and Kevin talk about prosecutorial discretion. I feel pretty confident that you executing someone is going to raise some interest.

What I have attached below is an extensive study specifically on convenience store robberies and the micro level behaviors that influence the outcomes. It shows that guns are used in only about 42% of Convenience store robberies, and are rarely fired. That what most often leads to violence is deviation from normative behavioral patterns of a robbery.

0022427817715754.pdf (230.4 KB)

[Robert5]

@Aaron25
The “Just for debates sake” covered more than one post or conversation. The first half was earlier when the statement was made that indicated leaving the clerk to their fate was the preferred method or solution for the hypothetical we have been discussing. Not the exact words but the caution against taking an active part in trying to protect the clerk we were supposed to imagine.
My comment was made to question if we are advised to leave and report a robbery that quite likely, or at least very possibly, will end in the death of that imaginary clerk would the advice be any different if we were in a group of people we didn’t even know and a shooter came in like the Walmart shooter? In other words what difference would more armed people make if they all left and reported the event? Hypothetically?

I think the positions of the debate have been stated and some people will flee and some will stand and fight. The second group seems to be more likely to have to deal with the legal system than the first. I also realize you would have to modify your conversation suggested by your USCCA Post incident instructions. So after calling 911 and making a minimal explanation I would call USCCA and only answer questions directed to me with my Lawyer in attendance. I have pretty much realized this from the first day I applied for my License to carry.

By the way because it is a hypothetical exercise I am not judging who is right or wrong. Stand and fight or flee is a personal choice.

[MikeBKY]

@Scott52

INNOCENT CLERK with HOLE in HEAD leaves behind lovely wife and three adorable children ages 3 - 5 and mortgage, services to be held Sunday.

I agree! Marksmanship, even at close distances matters. I would hope the shot within arms reach would be adequately accurate.

[Zavier_D]

@Robert5

@Robert5

The “Just for debates sake” covered more than one post or conversation. The first half was earlier when the statement was made that indicated leaving the clerk to their fate was the preferred method or solution for the hypothetical we have been discussing

Now, I have been following this thread. I guess I am reading it differently than you. I, personally, have not once said I would run or stand by and watch someone get murdered. I have said I would want to make sure I was in the right.

[Robert5]

To be clear @Zavier_D I never mentioned what you said, I was just clarifying my response to an earlier post by someone else. " No matter what state you are in it is better to run away IF POSSIBLE than it is to shoot another person. Remember, it is more about what a prosecutor can get a jury to believe than what actually occurred."
The debate part was about if that advice covers the hypothetical we were talking about or even shootings like what took place in El Paso.

Let me be clear one more time. It is a hypothetical exercise. I don’t know that one answer is better that the other I just question it because of the conversations we as a group are faced with when talking about why we carry. I agree the decision is not to be taken in a cavalier manner, and I am not saying anyone that wants to consider the aftermath of such a decision is wrong. I am also not saying that stand and fight is the best answer. I am asking if the stated default position adds to or detracts from many of our statements that there would be fewer shootings like the Walmart incident if there were more armed citizens? If they were trained in the default position would the result be any different than if no one was armed?

I didn’t post it to question the default position but only to Imagine standing before a community meeting and explaining our contention that more armed citizens would make us safer if the default position was to leave and report?

This conversation more than likely needs to take place face to face over some coffee and pie.

[Zavier_D]

@Zavier_D

That what most often leads to violence is deviation from normative behavioral patterns of a robbery.

I agree with the best fight is the one you are never in.

In the study I linked, it linked micro level behaviors that would set the stage for violence. Many of the behaviors listed here would set off a cascade of events that would lead to violence.

I enjoy these types of scenario debates, because as has been said many times here. The body can’t go where the mind has never been.

[Randall318]

@James

Remember, it is more about what a prosecutor can get a jury to believe than what actually occurred.

That is very true!!

[Aaron25]

GREAT points in your posts. And BTW, great shooting with the headshot drill.
Better to sweat in training than to bleed in combat.

[Zavier_D]

You know, we had a thread about shooting to music. I did that yesterday and Friday.

The results were pretty amazing both days. I definitely shot faster and I felt more accurately. But my energy levels at the end were much higher.

[Aaron25]

What were you listening to?

[Zavier_D]

System of a Down, Breaking Benjamin, mostly. When I am doing stuff like that I like to keep the beat count at 100 or higher with 120 beats per minute being ideal.