Thanks, as ever, @Dawn! I think I cover what I know (admittedly not much) below, but my sense is that ERPOs are being used as part of a package, which often includes mental health work as well. As I’ve said elsewhere, if I were in a really dark place where I might be able to harm myself as others, I’d rather be home and separated from my weapons while I got help, than forcibly locked up in a mental institution. If I’m locked up, I might lose my job or have other really negative repurcussions. If found mentally incompetent, I’d then lose the right to purchase any gun in the future.
From what I understand, it’s not either/or but another tool in the toolbox.
Your points about trusting the press and the need to be ever-vigilant are well-taken!
Thanks, @Dawn. I think we’re all a little scared of you. Seriously, you and the other moderators like @Zee do a terrific job of keeping things civil. Much appreciated.
BTW, you never said, did you end up going to the rally for the President? If so, how was it? Enquiring minds want to know…
My personal take on Red Flag Laws as currently implemented, I don’t like them. They are ripe for abuse, they violate so many Constitutionanal amendments, and there is no mechanism in place to have your property returned. On top of which, in some instances they have been served like no knock warrants for high risk felons.
When a law abiding citizen can be treated as a felon, just because a family member has an agenda, I draw the line. My life experience with my family (other than my wife and daughter) is not a good one, so Red Flag laws concern me.
As currently implemented Red Flag laws, are a brute force solution with little to no protections in place, for the subject of the order, on top of which, they violate so many foundational Constitutionanal precepts. I have not seen (does not mean that it does not exist, just I haven’t seen) any evidence compelling enough to justify the abuses that have resulted. I think that Law Enforcement has the tools to solve this problem.
If anything, I would advocate faster processing through the legal system for Domestic Violence and other issues where removal of firearms is sought. But with Constitutionanal protections in place. As well as a mechanism in place for criminal charges to apply to someone who abuses the system and makes false claims due to any animus the petitioner may have towards the subject of these orders.
I just think that it is ridiculous that a criminal has more legal protections, than a law abiding citizen, as regards to Red Flag laws.
You are never late here @Harvey! We will be here whenever life’s demands cease. All of us know what it’s like as even myself have been “late” returning messages here.
Thank you for the dialogue and, I hope all is well!
Thank you @MikeBKY. Couple questions, if you don’t mind…
A “mental inquest warrant”, is this what is sometimes referred to or related to a 3 day hold or involuntary commitment? What are the ramifications of this, if any? Can someone get a mental inquest warrant and later be denied on a background check for a firearm?
EPOs and DVOs, these just require you to basically stay away from the victim, or do they potentially come with other stipulations? If memory serves, DVOs will prevent you from passing a background check but an EPO does not, is that correct?
Further thinking about it, an ERPO is similar to EPO/DVO/IPO in terms of the level of proof, and the burden (seems to) fall on the subject of the ERPO/EPO/DVO/IPO. The ERPO however is aimed at taking your property while the EPO/DVO/IPO is meant to separate the subject from the victim. Is that a fair assessment?
Didn’t get to go to the Rally. I worked too late and wouldn’t have been able to make it before the rally was almost over (work an hour from home and then traffic to the rally… lack of planning on my part).
I think this is crucial. The article from The Bulletin was fantastic, I bookmarked it for later conversations with politicians in good ways to reduce suicides amongst the firearms community.
I think the key is maybe getting legislators to craft them well instead of copy/pasting whatever they’re given by Everytown. This is an uphill struggle.
I will 100% accept anecdotal evidence as long as it’s listed as such (hey, this is a firearms community, if not for anecdotes we’d have nothing to talk about ) I read each of the articles you posted. What I took away from them is that there was some percentage that (I think) really should have been handled in another format (specifically the domestic abuse ones). Then there was another percentage where a more permanent ban (criminal or mental) was more appropriate (specifically the guy shooting into the attic). And finally, another percentage where yes… an ERPO is probably the only way to address this temporary problem.
I will look more thoroughly at the study from Indiana that was mentioned that saw a 7.5% reduction in suicides as I’m fairly skeptical about that number. Is this a case like Connecticut (i think?) that says they saw reduction in firearms deaths after implementing gun control, but really the reduction tracked the same percentage as the rest of the country nationally. Or a case where suicides by firearm dropped, but overall suicides stayed the same. If there really is a 7.5% reduction in suicides, that is significant.
The article at the Heritage Foundation pointed out (and this is something you’ve pointed out as well) is that this is a potential “tool in the toolbox” if done properly. We just need to harp on the politicians to do it properly.
Nuance is something severely lacking in politics today. I feel like if you just put the members of this community charge of the country we’d all be better off. Topics like this one (and many others TBH) rarely have a black & white solution where clearly this is the right way and that is the wrong way. It seems like always the answer is somewhere in the middle. This is a tough topic with a lot of ways it can go sideways so lots of consideration should be applied.
The Democratic leadership has made it clear they don’t want to listen. My specific representatives in the State House & Senate have a long track record of pretending to listen and (in the case of my State Senator) outright hostility towards gun owners. I did speak via phone (I pretty well assume my emails go in the spam folder ) to my State Senator and he seemed to consider some of the downsides to ERPOs, but his initial stance was this is totally fine and why don’t we have this already it’s such common sense.
Our hope in Virginia is that 2A supporters have made enough noise where some that maybe would have voted for gun control may rethink their positions if they’d like to get re-elected next cycle. If the Democrats get their way, we will instantly become the most restrictive state in the country, and the only thing preventing it is that maybe some Dems will not vote on party lines. I’m pretty skeptical of that happening though.
Yes, an MIW is a 72 hour hold/involuntary commitment. These are legal proceedings that, if they are adjudicated mentally unfit, they would lose many rights, including the right to bear arms.
Yes, ERPOs require surrender of firearms and prevent you from purchasing and possessing them, while EPO/DVO/IPO usually require surrendering firearms, but it is at the judge’s discretion. EPO/IPO/DVO are more focused on preventing additional violence through no contact with the alleged victim and others who may be protected.
I’ve said it before, but I will say it again. It’s a good thing they are backing the LEO. But I wonder if they will be that diligent when a civilian claims a false ERPO against another civilian. I’m not much for gambling but I am going to say not bloody likely.
From my own personal experience: when I lived in Everett WA, a friend of mine tried to commit suicide. He took a hose and ran the exhaust from his truck into the cab. If it wasn’t for a neighbor coming home from work seeing what he had done he would be dead.
Just my own opinion but a determined person will try to kill him/her self no matter what. To me it’s like a murderer. Take away the gun, they’ll use a rope, car exhaust, drugs, or anything he or she can think of. You can’t be your neighbors protector 100% of the time.
A determined person will find a way d you won’t be able to stop it.
Seriously, you and the other moderators like 
) I read each of the articles you posted. What I took away from them is that there was some percentage that (I think) really should have been handled in another format (specifically the domestic abuse ones). Then there was another percentage where a more permanent ban (criminal or mental) was more appropriate (specifically the guy shooting into the attic). And finally, another percentage where yes… an ERPO is probably the only way to address this temporary problem.
, Happy Birthday.