Well it depends on the situation but if they’re trying to break into your home and you can lay in wait and ambush them I think those are pretty good odds. If they start trying to move you. If they give off any indications that’s they’re there for more than just stuff. If you have a great shot I’m not saying don’t take it if it’s a gas station robbery and there’s only one guy and his back is to you by all means.
You are also making unfounded assumptions concerning the motivations, mental state, emotional stability and rationality of the attacker, none of which you can know.
Besides, any seasoned gambler will tell you that playing the odds is a sucker bet.
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But again you’re assuming that acting does not have a cost, or has less of a cost than acting. You have a lot higher than a 6% chance of getting seriously hurt if you resist. You’re basically giving yourself a 94% chance of getting through a gun fight without injuries, since 6% of all robberies result in serious injury to the victim. And those numbers arent for victims who comply those numbers are for all victims. Meaning those who comply probably have an even better shot at not getting hurt. I disagree with your implied 94% probability that you wont get hurt resisting
Of course all actions have a cost. When you pick your behavior, you pick your (possible) consequences.
Im just sayin, guy walks up to me has a gun to my back and asks for my wallet, I’m giving it to him every time. There isnt anything in my wallet that i care about very much. I dont even keep cash at all and havent for years and have never needed it. Im not gonna take a risk of resisting on the off chance that hes really there to murder me and just disguised it as a robbery. I know they’ll say that well you never resist if he has the drop, but I dont really care, even if the guy doesnt have the drop i dont think im gonna get into a gun fight over what is certainly only likely to be for a wallet…unless i have an absolutely clear shot and more than enough time
Lets start with the basics and basic probability.
Rule #1 All guns are loaded: 100% chance that there is a loaded functioning firearm in the bad guys hand
Rule #2 Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot 50/50 odds the criminal has trigger discipline
Rule #3 Never point a gun at something you are not willing to destroy: 100% odds that he is willing to kill me if he is pointing a gun at me
Rule #4 Always be aware of what is beyond your target 100% chance that he doesn’t care otherwise the first three rules would not be in play
That the criminal brought a firearm with him/her in the commission of a crime AND presented it indicates to me that he brought it with the 100% intention of using it, add in the 4 rules above.
Given all the above I am already in fear of my life or great bodily harm, so the shoot don’t shoot is already answered.
The only question remaining is: Can I get my gun or weapon of opportunity into play before he/she can use there’s. It’s between me and him/her. I like my odds in most scenario’s.
Cheers,
Craig6
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Once again you are making assumptions about the perp’s mental processes, including that he has only one goal in mind to the exclusion of all others. People are rarely so simple or single minded no matter what they are doing.
Having been an adult participant of the 70’a and residing in a high-risk area of a major urban center, I have some small experience in these matters. A significant number of armed robberies were committed by very angry people who, in some level, considered their actions to include a certain amount of social justice. They did indeed want my stuff, but they were also very angry that I even had my stuff when they did not. Yes, they wanted my stuff, but they also wanted to reach me a lesson as well as sending a broader message.
I also have to call you out for your “gun in the back” scenario, which was obviously crafted to support your position but only represents a small percentage of armed robbery situations. In that specific situation your advice is sound, but it hardly supports the general statement you’re making. In fact, it doesn’t support it at all.
You’re argument uses both inductive and deductive reasoning, and badly in both cases.
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I’m not sure that it represents a small number of robberies… that seems like a pretty regular occurance to me.But hey we can all be happy that as USCCA members we’ll actually be covered unlike with FIrearms legal protection which has a huge set of exclusions etc. It doesnt even cover you if you have to use force against a family member or former family member, or if you use your hands… or pay court fees. They pay up to 5k for an expert witness 
Tell that to his wife. He complied. He got shot and then drew and returned fire.
When a robber pulls a gun out, it shows an intent to use deadly force. When exactly do you “determine that the chances of getting hurt in a gunfight are less than that of not resisting?” I’ll answer that for you, when the robber fires the first shot.
I’m from Kentucky and have been to the Derby about 1/2 of my 28 years here. Funny thing about the Derby, the odds on favorite usually does not win. It is usually a horse with odds averaging about 7 or 8 to 1. This years Derby, Country House won with odds of 65:1 after a Maximum Security, the second favorite, was disqualified for interference. Country House put about $700 in my pocket this year.
The problem with depending on statistics is that they only tell the story about past events. They are merely a prediction. Before Columbine, statistically, a school shooting was a hostage situation. Today, that is not the expectation even though the odds of being killed in a school shooting is over 600 million to 1.
My point is that I have trained and prepared for many years to keep the statistics in my favor. But, I am not going to defend myself with math. My assumption will always be that someone pointing a gun at me means to physically harm me and will Take whatever action necessary to end the confrontation in my favor. That may be handing over my wallet or putting the robber down. My goal is to go one in one piece with no additional holes, cuts, bruises or breaks.
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Oh PLEASE let the bad guy put a gun in my back.
That tells me two vital things immediately as well as the probability of the 3rd.
- Where the gun is
- Where he is.
- I can make a fair guess as to whether he is right or left handed.
After that my odds just went up dramatically and the only thing to do after that is act.
Cheers,
Craig6
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Unrelated questions are any of you guys concerned about the Bail/Bond amount provided with the USCCA ? I think we have 25k with platinum and 50k for elite doesnt seem like even close to enough? Im considering getting Firearms legal protection as well as they cover 250k in bail i think but only for approved uses which I think doesnt even include brandishing. Are any of you guys double insured?
KRS 503.055 Use of defensive force regarding dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcibly entering or had unlawfully and forcibly entered a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
If someone is trying to forcibly enter my home, I don’t care if they are coming in to make a sandwich or kill everyone in the house, the odds of them freely walking out the door is close to zero. They will be leaving in cuffs or in an ambulance.
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Yes if you can’t safely escape then the better option definitely would be to shoot them through the door or whatever if the ammunition will go through that…agreed there. You dont want to be caught flat footed at home or comply
any concerns about the bail bond amounts? are you double insured? Youre an attorney so im guessing yours would be considerably lower considering you’re an established respected member of the community?
Bail bondsmen usually charge between 10% and 5% of the stated bail depending on the bail amount but they can charge anything they want. So if they set your bail at $50K you will need $5K in fresh crisp $100 bills or mebby a credit card. Having the USCCA I would personally advise paying that out of pocket and using the USCCA for defense funds which will be extensive if there is any indication that you did not have a legal shoot which is why you needed bail in the first place.
Everyone’s financial position is different I was at one time $80K in the hole on credit cards. Through the use of 0% balance transfers, low interest loans and a good hard self talking to as well as getting the wife on board I am in a significantly better position after a relatively short period of time. In addition I now walk around with north of $90K in “equity” in my back pocket every day. CC companies are always willing to give you stupid huge credit amounts on 0% transfer cards hoping you won’t pay them off. As part of your self defense strategy being financially responsible should also be part of it.
Cheers,
Craig6
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You are correct, I am an attorney and am fairly well versed on criminal law in Kentucky. You have to understand the meaning of the law. An occupant of a home or vehicle is “presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm” if someone is trying or has “forcibly entered” your occupied home or car. That presumption runs in tandem with the law regarding the use of deadly force along with its immunity from both criminal and civil liability.
If I use defensive force against someone breaking into my home, the bail bond is the least of my worries. The intent of the one breaking in is not a factor in these instances. Which means it doesn’t matter if they are coming in for a sandwich or a glass of water or to kill all the occupants. The legal presumption means I do not need to wait to determine what the assailant’s intentions are before I defend my home.
And I’m not going to shoot through the door. I will wait until they get through the door.
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Kentucky has eliminated bail bondsmen. All bonds are paid to the Court. They can be secured by full cash, some percentage, property or surety. It is up to the judge.
I understand the legal presumption…but I also understand that the best chances any lawyer can give you that you’ll win at trial is around 75%. Do you feel that 50k is enough? Is there a reason you would wait until they would get through the door?
If your door is holding that means you are not in imminent danger (there is a door between you and physical harm) If you shoot through there are even odds you just shot an overly aggressive Amazon Prime guy that is late for his next drop off or a pissed off mail main who has pushed your non working door bell three times and knows you are home because of the cars in the driveway and he has a certified letter you need to sign.
Cheers,
Craig6
I will not shoot through the door because I cannot tell that it is not someone I know or the police. That’s a mistake I am not willing to make.
I think $50K bail bond coverage is reasonable. That would generally cove a $500K bond in KY.
And under KY self defense law, if the police believe it is self defense, they cannot arrest unless there is probable cause that the force used was not lawful.
If someone is busting through the door and i shoot them, I do not expect to be arrested and, if I am, I expect the charges being dismissed. The most unfortunate part of these circumstances is that many police do not know the law.
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