I can reassure you all that I consider the use of deadly force horrifying where one does not attempt to deescalate or escape. I agree 100% it is a tool of absolute last resort.
But some of you need a reality check. (Let the flame war begin!) For those of you who think this is a stupid exercise, or “that would never really happen,” or “my situational awareness is so sharp there is a 0.00% chance I would ever find myself in that scenario” (worst possible attitude is arrogance), look at the January issue of Concealed Carry magazine. See pp. 72-77. There is an article about a situation almost exactly analogous to mine; this incident took place in a garage.
Yes, this implicates the Castle Doctrine, but that’s beside the main important point.
This all reminds me of a set of movies they had us watch in elementary school, moral dilemmas. I won’t go into all the boring details, but they involved setting the viewer up with the premise of having done something wrong, for example stealing money out of a cash register. At the end of each film, there’s a set up, followed by a discussion: commit another wrong to cover the first, or do the right thing that will expose the original wrong?
I always resented the fact that they started me off as a wrongdoer, miscreant, criminal even. I wouldn’t play the game then, and I won’t play it now.
Ever since I was old enough to start with my dads Red Rider BB gun, NEVER draw a firearm or point a firearm at anything you do not intend to kill. As far as carrying concealed, again, I never INTEND on drawing my pistol unless I am in a situation that leaves me no choice. I emphasize intend in the last statement because there is no possible way to play out every situation thus I can not answer for something that has not yet happened. Being that your instructor placed you in the scenario of having already drawn, you are extremely limited as to what comes next. I believe that I would still attempt to de-escalate the situation with words and possibly replacing the firearm into its original place but keeping myself very ready to draw again if the PA advanced and made me feel that injury or death was still his motive.
If you were referring to me, I had everything typed out but it refused to load when I pressed the send button. It continually placed the cursor mid paragraph when I pressed it.
I would not have pulled my gun at the time you did. I would rely on my martial arts training and if he got close, I would defend myself using that first. In today’s world where bad guys are not held accountable, you are pretty much going to get in legal hot water whatever you do.
Does “I was in fear for my life” imply the PA had a gun? At my age it doesn’t. Having been aggressively approached by 3 drunks (with my wife) should we have run? How far? Degree of danger is in the eye of the beholder.
I was also cornered and assaulted by multiple meth heads in my office, the reason I now carry. OP definitely drew too early but only 2 or 3 steps early.
This conversation is trying to turn a subjective problem into an objective one.
Mike, were you referring to me? If so, I am curious to what you meant by my first attempt failed. If it is a personal stab because of something I said. I would like to know so that I can reword or just not answer in the future. I am not here to offend anyone in any way. Thank you.
I’m not sure that I agree that the only way you could subjectively fear for your life is if he took the gun away from you. Too many people are severely injured or killed by “unarmed” people each year to support the belief that an armed person is the only serious danger to you.
Under the given scenario, a physical confrontation is going to involve a gun whether or not you draw it. Concealment holsters are not really designed for retention and even holsters with good retention can be, and have been, defeated. As for the secrecy of concealed carry; that doesn’t really hold a lot of weight with me either. I’ve seen too many shirts ripped off during brawls to have a degree of confidence that a cotton / poly blend is going to survive a fight and keep the gun hidden.
The scenario is that you have already drawn your weapon and given commands. If you don’t feel the threat is adequate to fire then I would re-holster and either engage with empty hands or perhaps use an improvised weapon at hand as others have suggested. Keep in mind though that an improvised weapon can be considered deadly force as well. If I smack the drunk on the noggin with a pipe wrench, that can also be considered to be deadly force but if I smack him on the thigh it is likely to be only marginally effective.
There are so many factors that go into a use of force decision that it is almost impossible to give absolute answer under this scenario. The drunk is said to be smaller than you. Is he apparently in better shape or stronger than you? Do you have any physical conditions that limit your ability to engage in physical fight? You are at some sort of dead end environment with no escape. Were you chased there and are now exhausted? Aggressive drunks tends not have the restraint a sober person is more likely to use which can definitely make them more dangerous. He has already stated that he intends on taking your firearm from you. Words have meaning and also impact your perception of danger.
My answer to your instructor about shooting this guy would be “maybe.” He hasn’t done a good enough job in creating or delivering the scenario for you to make an actual decision. In that, this instructor has failed in presenting scenario based training. As for the legality of a self defense shooting, not enough information has been presented. He’s asking you to decide based on a few things he described, but there is a lot more to it than that. At the end of the day, the totality of the circumstances known to you at the time will be judged against the reasonable man standard. Use of force is never cut and dried. A perfect situation that ticks all the boxes is almost never encountered. That’s why prosecutors, defense attorneys and use of force experts need to review complete investigations before rendering opinions.
I’m sorry, I don’t know any of that actually helps, but that seems to be how it goes.
They key point here is “He is smaller than you…”
Why would you even display a weapon?
Kick him down, get out and call the police.
Never draw a gun until you have a safe target and you’re ready to shoot it.
The way I see this subject is like in the military, you get trained in all kind of situations so the instructor has the right to take you through thing’s that you may think this will never apply to you but you never know what life will bring your way so having knowledge about thing like that is truly a bonus for your war chest ok knowledge. Stay Alert Don’t Get Hurt.
A position with no way out happens. It happened to me at age 11 and I nearly lost my life to a pedo.
I don’t care the size or seeming ability, a crazy person is a hell of a lot stronger and way more fearless than average people could ever be.
