In other words, it is reasonable to believe that this person’s mind is all over the place. Probably can’t gather one coherent thought. What’s reasonable to us or for the person not experiencing this situation, we can conclude what should have been done. But for the person in the situation, with flashes of all kinds of possibilities playing out in their minds, it may be hard for them to determine what’s reasonable or right for them (or some) to do.
That sounds like a person that should no longer be allowed to carry a firearm. JMO
It’s one thing to leave your loaded handgun in an elementary school. It’s another thing to know you lost it somewhere and not even consider the possibility that you left it in the school you took it to, whilst it sits there
I treat, “off body carry” like the impossible oxymoron I think it to be. If it’s off body, you are not carrying it.
Better in my mind to consider the pack with a gun in it, not as a pack, but as a gun. If you think of it that way, leaving your purse on the counter to wash your hands, is no different than setting your gun on the counter to wash your hands,
To ensure positive control of your firearm at all times, a pack or purse has to be left on your person the entire time that firearm is inside it, and provisions have to be made to ensure it can remain on your person throughout all the tasks and situations encountered during the day.
As for some need to make the person pay such a heavy price because of the possible harm that could have resulted from the mistake, I would ask if we should do the same for traffic violations? Should we penalize the person who accidentally runs a red light by taking a video to local LE so they can be punished for the horrific accident that could have happened?
A person who runs a red light, yes, should face the legal repercussions for running a red light.
Indeed - for running a red light - and not for the accident that didn’t happen.
The way we handle it for running a red light is appropriate to the mistake made.
Edit: And I should add, that is in light of the fact that no harm resulted, which is a basic tenet of how we enforce our laws.
I did not intend to imply that the substitute should be punished for manslaughter or contributory whatever would be levied should a student have killed themselves or another. Something got lost in translation there.
It was actually illegal to simply have the gun in the school in the first place. And then it was left there unsecured.
The article states
“Wingo is expected to be charged with illegal conveyance of a weapon into a school zone, a fifth-degree felony.”
Are you saying that you don’t think the substitute who illegally brought a gun to the school, and then left it there unsecured an unattended, should face any legal repercussions?
It actually sounds to me like leaving the gun there isn’t resulting in anything other than being caught for having broken the law to have it there in the first place
It occurs to me that this person is being judged in the light of reckless endangerment, rather than a mistake not resulting in harm. I guess the question is, is that an appropriate way to look at it?
What you describe is a different situation than the one I was arguing. If it was illegally brought into a school, then yes, there should be greater repercussions, absolutely.
I am describing the incident we are talking about that was linked in the OP. I took that quote from the article in the OP.
Fair enough, - The gun should never have been there in the first place and was additionally brought by someone who had no legal right to do so in the first place. That is as unacceptable as you describe.
Edit: My mistake for not seeing all the available information on the thread.
Well, it’s time to bear my soul. I appreciate you all’s input on this thread. At points I have injected empathy towards the person that is the subject of this event. It’s only human to feel something, because of what we know of probable outcomes of such an infraction, not sparing the person. But Nathan57 kind of outed me, so I may as well share my personal thoughts. Again, they are “personal.” So let’s go back to the topic: “The Firearm is the Most Important Article on Your Person When Carrying”
As reported, thus far, a Substitute Teacher Brought a Firearm to School Concealed in Her Handbag and Left it Behind.
This Teacher, a professional, both skilled in pedagogy and bureaucratic norms (laws, rules, customs, procedures, etc.). made the conscious decision to place a firearm in her handbag and take it to work with her which was the school (a Gun Free Zone). Any one of us can and should question her motive for doing so. The firearm was not carried on her person, it was concealed in her handbag. Depending on the protocols at the school, the question rises, “how did she get it in the school?”
I surmise that somewhere in the course of her day she lost consciousness of that firearm that was concealed in her purse that she should not have had to begin with so as not to regard its presence, probably because it was off body. She subsequently, upon the end of her day, departed the school premises leaving behind her purse, which contained a firearm. How a woman does this, I haven’t a clue, and my wife couldn’t give me any coherent answers either!
Concomitant with it being lost, it was found by someone; it could have been the custodial staff, it could have been the security staff (if such exist.), it could have been a child (we do not know), etc. At any rate, it was found, and it was turned in, and from that point forward it has been “on and poppin.”
As an Instructor, I take the task ultra-seriously. I have a very low tolerance for foolishness and negligence as it pertains to firearms, simply because of the destruction that can be caused by careless or negligent acts. So, I’m impassioned, as I believe every Instructor is (regardless of the areas of specialty or expertise), about ensuring that the would-be owner/possessor or carrier of firearms not only knows the safety rules but the ramifications of negligence, unlawful use, or improper storage of firearms, not to mention the physical, financial, legal, and moral toll that comes from irresponsibility.
While I believe in the RKBA as has been afforded us by the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, I believe we are also responsible for how we keep and bear those arms, which is why we Instructors are so vociferous against a Lacki daisy regard for the same. In truth, while it is assumed that we are responsible gun owners simply because we have the right, does not necessarily mean that everyone possesses the temperament. This is too often borne out by such actions that is now the topic of this thread.
This does not mean that the person in question is not otherwise a good and well-meaning person! It simply means that they did not possess, apply or demonstrate the temperament and/or necessary regard for what it takes to carry a firearm responsibly.
As a responsibly armed American, we know the serious responsibility that comes with owning a firearm, i.e., how it is to be accessed, handled, carried, maintained, stored, and used. Nothing beside not owning one can absolve us from this responsibility. Nothing.
When Instructors (by credential) place their signature and certification number on a certificate, they are reasonably certain that you and I have the necessary grasp on what it takes to select, legally purchase, own, possess, carry, maintain, store, use, or otherwise function that firearm. Though they may be very personable, they are ultra-serious in this work. Because lives are potentially at stake. And they do not suffer fools or foolishness very well.
And when someone skirts the rules or act in ways that demonstrate irresponsibility, an answer has to be given. Accountability must be met. Consequences must be borne out for the callous disregard for responsibility.
As for feelings about this matter: I have no feelings about this matter, it’s crystal clear. What I feel for is a life is now upside down because of the foolish choice that was made to disregard what they knew to be the rules or the law. I believe an answer must be given. Consequences must be borne. And in truth I would have no compunction whatsoever about seeing it through. Why? Because the lack of regard for responsibility puts lives in danger.
Also, and one final insertion: While she is being charged with a class 5 felony, it does not mean that she will be found guilty. So, I’m not condemning her either, nor should we, because neither of us walk three feet above contradiction. But we can train through this so as to lessen the chance that it happens to us.
Thank you all for playing along and submitting your inputs. That’s part of what we’re here to do, make each other better. Thanks. This ends the sermon. Be responsible, stay safe, and carry on.
We all can make a mistake, did, or will. Not something we’re proud of. But how we respond to it, defines us.
I hear a ton of support valuing and suggesting “training and education”, however I also hear a ton of “just do not mandate it”.
So we care, we complain when we make a mistake, but not enough to mandate training?
Contradiction? Controversial? Complicated?
The law is the law. But, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, is an inalienable right that derives from God. Now, as a responsible gun owner I seek training, because I choose to. Not because I am forced to.
Compelled speech, and compelled behaviour, is a slippery slope.
As an example. Before you can speak in public, you must be trained in the rules of debate, or before you can go to church, you must have seminarian training.
When you have the government, compelling behavior, where do you draw the line? I’m a responsible law abiding citizen, I am trained, my firearms are stored safely, I keep them maintained, and in good working order. I do this because I am a responsible gun owner. Not because I am compelled to.
When your rights are naturally derived, you should be very careful in asking for compelled behaviour on a natural right. The Constitution does not grant us our rights it simply states what Government Can Not Do
Government mandated training doesn’t prevent “mistakes”.
If it did, we’d see it in the stats/comparisons between states that require training for a license and states that don’t. And the ones who seek control/mandates would be showing us those stats constantly. But, we don’t see that.
Do you suggest mandated training that, for example, includes telling people they cannot ‘carry’ off body because they might forget it somewhere? If that’s the end point, just make it illegal to ‘off body carry’?
Or, punish people when they do what they shouldn’t do and otherwise leave people with their Rights and Liberties
You are absolutely right! Some of those mistakes are recoverable and cost very little. Some are recoverable and cost you a great deal. But some are not recoverable and cost you everything. And then some mistakes can cost you your very life.
I can continue to appeal to you, or advocate training, training, training, until hopefully one day you see the logic, or perhaps something may occur along life’s highway that comes along side the appeals that have been made that causes you to acquiesce to training. But if I mandate training, you have no options. I strip away your right to choose, where do I stop?? I would rather beat you with a stick to get you to see my point, than to take away your right. Because you can change your mind and opt to train. But if I take away your right to choose; whether you change your mind of not, it doesn’t matter, because I’ve taken the right from you!
I’d rather continue to advocate for your voluntary participation.
A “Two-way street.”
We, our spouses, and babies see doctors who - by law, can’t practice medicine without training, licenses (life and death on the line). I think we want them trained.
A firearm also deals with life and death, but “not even a minor training in comparison to the doctor.”
Although some states do require training, it’s pretty minimal. Further complicated in the costs of training. I can advocate for it to be affordable. We sure pay plenty in taxes and fees; Wish those funds could help offset training costs.
I regret to say, we will continue to see accidents and mistakes. Honor goes to the man/woman who becomes a safety steward out of the error he/she made. What a powerful “change” agent.
I not want to give away the right to carry, I want us to keep that, but at the same time, I’m willing to accept a training requirement. We can limit the regulations, we can put caps on restrictions.
As the legislators are who write the proposed laws, we who need to encourage them on the wording of it.
A part of me wonders though, if we create programs to mitigate accidents, it might that actually help us, so that there is increased safety while legally owning, so we never end up like Canada, in that way.
So it doesn’t ‘back-fire’, so we don’t ‘shoot ourselves in the foot’ (no pun intended), by not requiring training.
If it’s all the same, I would prefer not to get beaten with a stick.
From a local School Districts employee manual…
- The law provides that a qualified person may receive a permit “to carry a concealed firearm for lawful self defense” UCA §§53-5-704(1),-705. A concealed dangerous weapon means “a dangerous weapon that is covered, hidden or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence and is readily accessible for immediate use.” UCA §76-10-501(3)(a)(i). Therefore, any lawfully concealed firearm on District property or in District vehicles must remain concealed such that the public is not aware of its presence.
- District property may not be used to hide, cover or secret a firearm. A lawfully concealed firearm must be within the employee’s immediate control at all times. Employees must recognize that students could gain access to a firearm that is not properly concealed, or controlled. Therefore, employees must use good judgment and strictly follow the law and this policy.
So, around here teachers can carry if they have a permit but can’t leave it over night for someone else to find.
In my personal opinion, any time, the government has attempted to legislate morality and/or good behaviour. It has failed categorically. No one would drink alcohol ie. “Prohibition”, use drugs ie. The War on Drugs, there would be no one practicing Terrorism ie The War on Terror.
As a matter of fact, the attempts to legislate morality, could be argued, that they have caused far more damage than they fixed.
I know that it is having a negative generational effect on distinct parts of our Country. As well as embolding and incentivizing criminals, as they produce the now forbidden product.
If you want to compare to seeing a doctor…
…is there government mandated training coupled with a permission slip that you must obtain before being granted the privilege of carrying a tourniquet around for personal use?
Yes, we will continue to see mistakes and accidents with everything that exists in life, always and forever until beings no longer exist. People will have mistakes and accidents with guns, knives, saws, toothbrushes, glass bottles, pieces of candy, and jump ropes.
Government mandated training to have something with which you can have an accident or make a mistake…how long will the training class be that prevents slips and falls on a wet floor before we are allowed to use our own bathroom?