Shooting Competency for Carry Permit?

Same here. When it comes to carrying handguns in public I think we cross the line where public safety trumps the inconvenience of live fire qualification and licensing but I 100% oppose anything other than an honest “shall issue” system that excludes only those who cannot lawfully possess a firearm under federal law.

I also have a conflict between licensing for open as well as concealed carry. I could favor a minimal requirement for OC but do favor licensing for CC.

It isn’t the guy or gal willing to walk around OC’ng that you have to worry about doing so unlawfully or committing a crime with the firearm.

Almost all of those committing crimes with handguns were carrying concealed before committing the crime and those that get away will almost always go back to concealing it as soon as they are done.

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Unfortunately there seems to be very few of those liberals left on the left side of the aisle.

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The reality is that a required class is an infringement. Period.

PA has no training requirement, issues more carry permits than most states, and if you can find more than 2 or 3 incidents in the last 25 years that would have been prevented by a required training class I would be very surprised.

You feel that you need a class before you are comfortable carrying, great, then take one. You feel that it should be required, then you’re on the side of those who would destroy the 2nd.

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I get your point but by in large the left wing is very anti gun and anti freedom. Thanks for your comments.

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There’s some good conversation going on here, but I’d like to make a point of clarification.

When speaking about the anti-gun sentiment please refer to them as anti-gun people, not liberals. We know a lot of people who are liberal who fully support our Second Amendment rights and carry on a daily basis.

We do not want to be grouped with people who do not represent us – in other words we do not want to be associated with criminals who use fire arms - so let’s not lump a whole group of people together based on what some in their group believe.

Those generalizations hurt our arguments for responsible gun ownership and alienate those who are liberal and carry a firearm. This community is here to help everyone learn about responsibly caring a fire arm and self defense – no matter what their background.

We need to be a specific and respectful as we possibly can be as we discuss this very volatile issue.

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competency part of CCW license is pretty lax. I personally don’t believe it’s hard. But I’ve seen people struggle. I go to CCW classes since it free for me. LOL. I learn something new every time. I believe those that do struggle just need to get more training and feel more comfortable. They are responsible for every shot. In my opinion, they shouldn’t be disqualified from getting a carry license. I am now in a Constitutional Carry state, but i would get a license anyway. It’s how I notify if I get pulled over and it allows me to travel.

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You make a good point @Dawn. It is hard to control sometimes. I do have many friends and people in my live that lean left or very left. There is one that I just adore. She is over 70 years old, loves myself and family. When she found out I was conservative, she said “that’s not possible, you are too nice”. Makes me wonder what they think of us. :joy:

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I have concerns. When I got my permit in California there was a shooting component. However, the shooting was not scored. Instead the Sheriff’s department reps were watching for safe weapon handling. That made sense.

In comparison, I was chatting with a retired police officer, at lodge, in Kansas. Somehow the issue of permits came up. He stated that that very few people were able to qualify for permits. Taking him at his word, the shooting was done immediately after the applicant ran an obstacle course and applicants were required to shoot the rounds that the pistol was capable of.

What that last sentence meant was made clear by the anecdote that was shared. Apparently the applicant was “huffing and puffing” from the obstacle course and he had a 44 mag, however, he had never fired 44 mag out of it, ever. To qualify he had to shoot 44 mag because that was what the revolver was capable of. According to the story, he didn’t get his permit.

This would be an absurd test. Further, by passing such a “police” test, it could easily lead the ones that did pass to believe that they were more qualified than they were. Of course, he held that few did get permits.

That takes me to training requirements. First, I believe people should avail themselves of when it is available (locale) and accessible (cost). However, I have seen training being used as a barrier. In the 70s’ we lived in a suburb of Los Angeles, and my father needed a Concealed Permit and went to apply. He discovered that there was a one day class to get the permit, but it had a $2,000 fee (that comes to a bit over $9,000 in today’s dollars).

A few days later he brought it up with the county supervisor that he was having lunch with. The response was that the requirement wasn’t for people “like you.” A few phone calls were made and the training was waived.

I mention these instances to point out that, seemingly sound, restrictions can be used as a discretionary filter rather than a true measure of competence or providing meaningful training.

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Some very valid points above. Going through a CCW class to get a license doesn’t not mean anyone is proficient. Training is the key. That’s why one of my training avenues is USCCA.

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Exactly! That’s why I am so adamant that we use the right “label” when we talk about anti-gun people. There are a lot of liberal people who embrace our right to carry - even if they are afraid or don’t carry themselves.

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I agree with you, @Hasaf. I’ve seen training and expensive licensing used as a way to keep people from being able to carry for their defense.

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Nothing in Alabama, only a background check. My step-daughter got her CCW a couple of days ago and was in and out within 10 minutes with her permit. I had to wait a week on mine, but it was a different county and it’s up to the county Sheriff how quickly they process them. Since it’s just an NCIC check, the actual background is quick.

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Not off of your own property unless the gov’t requires you to be there.

To argue that the 2nd Amendment grants an unlimited right to carry anywhere, anytime for everyone is a losing argument that isn’t ever going anywhere.

All rights are subject to some limitations because we have no right to violate the rights of others.

As my dad used to say, “Your rights end where my nose begins”.

We have to be more reasoned and rational than the anti 2nd Amendment crowd or we’re never going to get anywhere.

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I’ve followed the requirements in each of the states in our general part of the country as CC has spread and I don’t believe what you were told has ever been true in KS.

No state that I’m aware of has ever required any sort of “shooting under stress test” for concealed carry.

Law enforcement, level III and Level IV Private Security don’t even require that for basic certification.

KS in fact has very minimal qualification requirements that anyone even marginally competent with a handgun should be able to pass.

http://www.tlso.net/ks_range_qual.php

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Yes, currently Kansas has very liberal carry laws.

The conversation was with a retired police officer and reflected one of the problems with allowing cities and counties to make up their own standards.

He was bemoaning the change in Kansas to the current laws, which is a recent change.

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How does carrying a gun violate someone else’s rights? My right to carry in no way infringes upon your right not to carry. You are welcome to tell your friends not to carry on your property, and ask them to leave if they refuse to comply. But if you are a place of public accommodation you lose that right. Except in states where the anti-gunners have gotten a foothold.

Your right to carry a gun already has restrictions as to where you can carry, , e.g., a prison, a courthouse, Federal offices, Post Office, etc. Some make sense, some don’t.

For the most part we are already the rational side of this argument and hold the high ground. And that is completely meaningless when you are competing with someone’s “feelings”. To voluntarily minimize our rights is to lose them. The other side doesn’t see that as compromise, they see it as outright agreement with their point of view and simply the first step in their plans.

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I have to admit, I had to read this one a few times thinking you meant anti-gun liberal and not open to new behavior liberal… :thinking:

Maybe I just need another coffee this morning :smiley:

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If you are on another persons’ property it is their right to decide who enters the property and how they conduct themselves on that property is up to them.

We have the freedom to decide whether or not to enter their property or remain on it according to their rules.

Public accommodation laws violate every principle of property rights as protected by the constitution and should be overturned on that basis.

As for feelings, not to beat up on you but examine your own argument about property rights as it’s based solely on your own feelings with no respect for the rights of the property owner.

In Texas business owners are empowered to deny you carry on their property by posting very specific signage and if you violate it they can tell you to leave. If you refuse they can have you cited arrested for trespassing as is their right.

If we don’t respect their rights we have no room to ask them to respect ours.

The peaceable compromise is to neither of us violate the rights of others.

To that end we are free to chose not to do business with them and if they suffer enough losses for the policy they will close or change the policy.

Most of us would not allow a guest in our homes to spew profanities or put porn on the TV for our families to watch and listen to would we? Do you consider than an infringement on their first amendment rights or simply exercising your property rights?

Reasonableness demands we put our own emotions in a box and respect the rights of all equally if we want them to respect ours.

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Classical Liberal/Libertarian rather than how the modern left has co opted the term.

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You need to examine your own statements rather than pontificating. I already stated that people have the right to determine activities in their own property. You made the blanket statement that people did not have the right to carry off of their own property. As that argument is fundamentally unsupportable you now simply are obfuscating what you said.

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