Since a comment I made in another section is making waves,figured I would post this.Ive been chastised for saying I would shoot a criminal in the head…then the guff comes.In the war all we had to shoot at was a head 70 percent of the time.Im still alive…must have done something right,huh.Then can you hit one moving?,You better be able to or you were dead…all these experts ever shot anyone?Okay I haven’t had to kill a civilian,never want to unless forced.That being said if I ever encounter a bad guy with a Kevlar helmet I will shoot elsewhere.So I guess if you want to hammer me for this…start swinging.
Rules of engagement in war verses civilian life might be where the line changes.
I’ve adapted well,I’m not running around claiming PTSD has screwed up my mind.I work well with others…blah blah.Wounded enemy/ assailants are still potentially dangerous,saw it lots.Lost a couple of friends to it.Head shots eliminate that possibility.
Shoot to stop the threat. In the words of Clint Smith start shooting at the first place your barrel passes, ie the crotch work your way up. If it takes a head shot to end the threat then so be it.
Everyone will do what needs to be done to make it home eventually.
I’m sorry, I’m not implying that you have PTSD.
I am referring to what a person can do in war as compared to in a civilian environment.
I believe that I should train to hit whatever I am aiming at, whether a head shot or leg. I use steel reactive targets 99% of the time to help me achieve immediate results where I know what I need to adjust verses paper where I would have to stop and check.
The issue I can see with using a head shot to stop an immediate threat to my person is that the “average” person most likely does not own a firearm, held one, shot one, trained with one and the closest they have is been by watching John Wick put hundreds of head shots into bad guys for 2 hours.
Now introduce politicians and anti gun groups that believe you only need to “shoot them in the foot or leg” because the bad guy who may possibly be a not so much bad guy won’t be able to defend himself in court over his actions.
The jury of peers, which I use loosely, most likely will NOT fit the definition of MY peers and will most likely NOT know anything about the laws of self defense regarding loss of life will listen to whatever the mainstream media, gov politicians tell them and that if I stopped a threat from prematurely taking my life away from me or my loved ones is most likely going to put me in prison because of a head shot instead of center mass.
When my adrenaline is pumping I cannot see myself aiming for anything other than what I was trained to do, center.
Hth if it makes any sense.
Sorry, I’m trying to be productive, not trying to tear down your view or you.
I agree totally.Everyone sees things like this differently.Im tuned to going to the range twice weekly,shooting smaller targets at longer distances with handguns.This will stir it up too but either I carry a 10mm 1911 or a S&W 44 magnum.The reason?Both have pinpoint accuracy and maximum stopping power.To top it off for everyone I always open carry.Much to everyones surprise almost no one notices let alone take it from me…lol.
I missed the thread where headshots were chastised or “better be able to or you’re dead”. Generally, though, most instruction and training is for high center mass or what was quoted about Clint, which generally translates to legs/crotch first as the muzzle is generally coming up to the threat as opposed to down. But, sometimes a headshot is a better option…there was a concealed carry magazine not long ago titled something to the effect of “is center of mass good enough” or some other that talked about using headshots or pelvis shots that was really well written IMO.
If it was one of the threads about the guy in Houston, the specific shot to the back of the head in that one, well, looked like more of an execution so that back of the head shot…not a good one IMO
As I see the headshot discussion started over my comment about wasted ammo.The (you better be able to or your dead) is stated above.I don’t have a problem with you or your views on things…God that’s the only thing left that makes this country great anymore.
Sometimes a headshot is the right decision. Intermediate and advanced self defense pistol classes all include small target (head shot) work. IDPA and USPCA competitions routinely include stages that require head shots.
To understand use of a head shot when essential to saving lives, look up Jack Wilson and West Freeway Church of Christ in Texas. A single head shot protected congregants between Jack and the attacker. He has been interviewed many times, and the video is widely available.
Short news report here. with statement from Jack.
Longer interviews: NBC (19 minutes), CBS (13 minutes).
That was an execution and I don’t condone that.I meant while he was still standing.One shot as opposed to several.Hense the reason for the wasted ammo comment.
Imo, center mass shots are the way to go if circumstances permit. Bigger area to hit, lower percentage of misses.
This is off topic and probably deserves it’s own thread but I mostly train the same way and wonder if this could potentially create a training scar that might have a negative impact in a self defense situation.
Not only do I immediately know that I am making hits on steel but I can usually tell where I am hitting and instantly adjust for better accuracy. I sometimes wonder if in an actual incident my mind might assume I am missing and try to make unnecessary adjustments if the criminal doesn’t immediately react to the hits they are taking? Might need to get some of those upper body shaped foam targets and mount them so they won’t move. Would be interesting to see if my performance differs when I don’t get instant feedback.
I think you are thinking well. Mix it up, don’t get ‘stuck’ on one thing/process/etc.
Even just shooting at paper and not gophering up to look for holes you could do drills where you shoot until you have determined the threat is stopped based on calling your shots via sight picture and then lower the gun and look or pull the target back and see what the hits actually were
For bonus points get a friend etc to stand by you, start from holster, have friend indicate (the old THREAT or whatever trigger word is yelled) when to go (or maybe just a timer beep) and then you draw and fire until friend indicates threat has stopped. You decide what shots to make during that time…maybe you think you’ve landed several center mass/chest shots and threat isn’t stopped so you decide to go for an alternate target. Maybe friend knows ahead of time what he is looking for…X number of torso hits…hit that’s not in a body armor section so friend is waiting for you to make the headshot…maybe it’s a psychological stop at one hit and you need to stop shooting when threat end is called. Maybe as soon as you start drawing the threat poops themselves drops their weapon and runs and the idea is that you don’t even fire a shot…
I like those ideas. Now I just need to get my shooting buddies off their butts and to the range so I can try them:)
Another idea I had was putting a foam target on a tippy base that would start to fall after a couple hits. Better yet might be a foam target on a swivel base that a partner could pull a rope on and make it quickly turn its back after a random number of shots.
I think coming up with effective training methods to quickly recognize and react to the threat ending can be quite a challenge. Especially given how our bodies and minds are likely to be reacting if faced with a sudden, surprise life or death situation.
I have made and used his 'intelligently controlled targeting system" it works really well for moving and shooting. Simple to make and effective.
We have these on the way, saw them last week.
We already train this way, definitely helps a lot, always under pressure.
If you are using deadly force, presumably you or another are in imminent peril of serious bodily injury or death. Ergo deadly force is authorized by law. Targets are those that present themselves. Effective targets are timers or switches. Head shot through the medulla oblongota is a switch. Hit it, the computer shuts off, and down goes the target. Hit center of mass and maybe hit the aorta, liver, spleen, and these are timers…takes some time to bleed out, cutting off oxygen carried in the blood to the brain, so starving the computer of power. Switches are more effective than timers. Head shot if you can get it. Applies whether you’re using a firearm, cold weapon, or bare hands, feet and skeleton. I don’t see a criticism of the target when violence is the only answer.
Yup. It was either the Brits or Aussies who noted that their snipers/marksmen shoot at the target’s mouth, as the medulla oblongota is directly behind the mouth/throat. So the mouth is a good aiming point if you want to hit that “kill switch.”
The kidneys, when punctured are “timers” (in your parlance) but will kill the person within 30 seconds (I had read 19 seconds) due to the toxins that are released into the bloodstream. Kidneys are a little harder to target, as they are further towards the back of the abdomen, unless you have really good penetration and even better aim.
True. The Army teaches center mass is the ideal aim-point. However, with the prevalence of body-armor, most modern armies outfit their troops with pretty decent body armor. My first deployment to Iraq, I was issued the IOTV with front, back, and side plates. Don’t know what NIJ rating those plates were, but I felt a lot better being armored than not, despite the additional 37 pounds (IOTV, plates, full combat load of 180 rounds of 5.56, etc.)
So facing an armored adversary, aiming for center mass really won’t stop the bad-guy. At best, the impact momentarily stops him, but the threat is still there. In that case, I would go for thighs (femoral artery), knees, or feet. A belly shot is painful and will lead to the person bleeding out eventually, but you may not have that kind of time. Take away the attacker’s mobility, and you can end the threat by escaping. Then you can call the police, and chances are the attacker will still be there, either dead or dying in a pool of their own blood.