He should have never been approved

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While mass shooters do not fit a particular profile, there are risk factors and direct indicators, as even evidenced by this editorial. I guess my frustration is with all of the red tape, the bureaucracy, the politics and PC that ensues just to remove such a person before they do something heinous such as this. However, that’s my frustration; Because the beauty of America is: Everyone has rights.

In this situation, can’t you hear this person say, “why y’all jumping on me now; y’all knew I was messed up a long time ago, yet, you did nothing! What’s different, here?”

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System failed… and now this system is looking for a victim for the failure.

I have nothing against the people’s look or habits… but everytime I see person like him walking around in my LGS or Range… my blood pressure jumps up and my thumb safety is close to be off.

It’s hard to comment something like this, because there is never a perfect solution. :man_shrugging:

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My concern with this action. Is things like this do not happen in a vacuum. I worry that people see this and then Red Flag laws appear to be a reasonable compromise. I am loathe to give law enforcement that additional tool.

Maybe I am inferring to much into this. But it concerns me. I agree with @Jerzy it’s hard for me to comment.

However, a D.A. could have charged the shooter. Whether there was a complainant or not.

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So, what could be a viable compromise or alternative? A letter from a public official, perhaps, to be included in the purchase or carry permit application opining an applicant’s personal character and mental fitness?

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I don’t think the hate and violence in this country in the world for that matter is a bureaucracy problem. It is a people problem. We are all looking for somebody to fix it when we have to look in our selves to fix it. The only way I know right now to put it is “love is the answer”.

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It’s always people problem.
Everything in this World has been created by people. Every rule, every law, every limitation, every right.
Are these still for the people? :roll_eyes:

Long time ago everything was about the power and also “liberty, equality, fraternity”.
These days all is about power and money.
We are just small parts of big system machine. Power brings money… Money brings power.

Perhaps “Death penalty” in all 50 states would change criminal’s minds. We need something to make them think about the consequences. (In case they can think).

Few days ago we had execution style shooting in Chicago. That freak who took 3 lives was on the parole after previous violent crime. Now, even he was arrested he may spend rest of his life in nicer conditions than some good, law abiding citizens…
:man_bowing:

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I’m for the death penalty, but it hasn’t worked.
It’s about the individual and immediate gratification.
The advent of the internet and the phone are a “black swan”.
This can’t be changed.

There’s a Florida sheriff who’s about to ban cell phones in school. Good luck with that! I’m going to call this generation the DIS generation. They have total disrespect, disregard, disagreeable, dishonest and have a dismal outlook on life. The DIS generation!

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Violence and hate get me upset. I am going to count my blessings.

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This is an emotionally charged issue for many. I am not comfortable, trying to debate this. I, personally, believe that every mass shooter should get the death penalty. As, a responsible gun owner, I made myself watch, every victim of the Parkland shooters, parents impact statements during the sentencing. I did that because of my Constitutional Absolutist belief. I was horrified.

I have a daughter, that was a tenth of an inch from possibly being killed. She literally got a friction burn from the round passing her, on her arm. I wrote about it here (search 12/19/18 as a title). I, myself, was under anesthesia 2 operating rooms away from a mass shooting. So I get it. I hate what was done by that mass shooter.

But following the logic here, shouldn’t the District Attorney, who declined to prosecute the shooter 2 years ago, also be charged with Reckless Endangerment? A District Attorney, can and has, prosecuted cases before without a complainant.

If (who am I kidding) when this happens, there will be a precedent set, that makes anyone in the shooters family, eligible to be prosecuted.

Fini

YMMV

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Hi Zavier_D.

I read a book about making improvements in work processes. Their examples included nuclear energy, commercial airlines, and healthcare industries.

Where life is on the line, hanging by a thread, in the “balancing act”.

In it, they talk about investigating mistakes, then learning from them, finally - making changes to reduce that mistake, reduce – not necessarily completely stopping it - though the goal / a hope.

If we went all the way back on this assailant’s case/life, we can find all the points, process and people who affected him, but of course he too has a great responsibility.

The parents, yes, culpable, to a point.

Got no words for what you and your daughter went through. Just respect.

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I agree. It is “emotionally” charged. This is not a debate. It’s not ours to do so. Still, there is a responsibility and accountability that is owed to the acts that have been committed. Causation, unfortunately, is something that will occupy its own place on rung of priorities. There is no easy approach, nor is there any quick fixes. I believe it will take grit and a hard line. I don’t see that in our present or near future.

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I think to myself what would Jesus say? What would my Heavenly Father say? What would I want someone to do if I were in their position. If I wanted to take up arms against a innocent human being I would hope to get the love I needed to change my mind. If I didn’t get that love I would hope someone would put the fear in me to stop me. If that fear doesn’t stop me I would hope someone would disable me and kill me if necessary.

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Im afraid of the future, if this is what it looks like. I just think this is a first step on a very slippery slope.

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“Au Contraire, Mon Frere,” this slope has been slippery for a very long time. Just ask your parents (if you are still blessed to have them with you). They may opine the slope slipping when you became a teenager, and the culture of that day. lol.

As for being afraid, it could be just what is needed to stay alive. I think it can be healthy to admit. But use it as fuel to propel you forward, to continue in the fight. It may be risky, but what worthwhile venture isn’t? America is not a guarantee; America is an “experiment.” You’ve got to want it! And it requires risk! Here’s a condensed quote that has helped me over the years:

"To reach for another is to risk involvement.
To expose your feelings is to risk exposing your true self.
To place your ideas, your dreams, before a crowd is to risk their loss.
To love is to risk not being loved in return.
To live is to risk dying.
To believe is to risk despair.
To try is to risk failure.
But risks must be taken, because the greatest hazard in life is to risk nothing.

The people who risk nothing, do nothing, have nothing, are nothing. They may avoid suffering and sorrow, but they cannot learn, feel, change, grow, love, or live. Chained by their attitudes they are slaves; they have forfeited their freedom.

Only a person who risks is free.”

(President’s Newsletter, November 1982, Phi Delta Kappa, Bloomington, Indiana).

I hope you find it useful as well.

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Thank you for your words. I have tried very hard to not respond negatively in this post.

But everyone seems to be missing the point. So I will say it bluntly. I do not support what the mass shooter did. In any way, shape or form

People seem to be ok, for a parent who signed off on a rifle purchase that happened 2 years ago. For that parent to be prosecuted. Think about it.

The shooted did not do anything for 2 years. 2 years . How is anyone supposed to predict what is going to happen 2 years from now. You can point and say that he was crazy 2 years ago . But for 2 years the shooter didn’t do anything. Yes the shooter is morally , ethically, and spiritually repugnant. But this is an ugly door we are about to open.

If it’s such a clear cut case of Reckless Endangerment. Why are the police, and D.A. not being prosecuted? H#ll, we may as well throw in the FFL.

But we are ready to roast the parent for something that happened 2 years ago. 2 years in which nothing happened to give the parent pause. It could be argued, that buying the rifle caused the shooters behavior to change for the better for some unknown amount of time.

That’s what I am against. There have been countless Domestic Abuse situations, where a D.A. has prosecuted a Domestic Abuser w/o a claimant. So why are we not roasting the D.A.? Since we are going back to what happened 2 years ago.

Everyone is wanting to blame the parent for the shooters behavior 2 years after the fact . If that becomes the new standard. Good luck on that. If you don’t think that will have chilling effect.

I know a kid who won over $250,000 in college scholarships. Graduated with honors from his high school. Who is now in prison, with convictions in 2 states. 7 felony burglaries, and shot up a police station 2 years after he graduated from High School. So, following the logic, his parents should be convicted of reckless endangerment, for the rifle his parents gave him 2 years ago when he graduated from High School?

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I agree with others who are slow to comment on this. But at the risk of being more foolish, I’ll comment on it. I can’t help but think of how I handled my own son, constantly assessing his own maturity until I believed he was able to handle his first rifle safely on the range, under my supervision. I’m sure many of you went through the same thing.

At any point, had my son threatened to kill me, he would have lost all access to any firearms under my roof. I certainly wouldn’t have signed off on a FOID.

The flip side of this argument is- and this could get interesting- if the father is criminally liable because he signed off on his son’s FOID, then is the government at all liable for issuing the same FOID?

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I did. Except it was my daughter. I bought her a .380 pistol and a .22 pistol to practice with, when she moved out of her dorm into off campus housing. As well as giving her my 2 K-9 trained dogs. I wanted to make sure she was as safe as I could.

Edit: I am not sure whether I made it clear enough that when my daughter received those handguns that I had spent a significant amount of time training her, and that she had training from another instructor as well, and that she had a non trivial amount of range time also.

My daughter and I will go to the range at least 2 times a month. So I can watch her technique and that she is still treating her firearms respectfully, and not as a toy. She is also a CC permit holder.

There reaches a point where I can train those I care about, and then I will pay for another instructor to further train them.

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@Zavier_D, I respect your impassioned response as well as your emotional investment along this thread, and I admittingly, had to walk around for a few moments and consider the gravity of your viewpoint before “popping-off” some weak opinion of my own (not that I can make it strong by any stretch).

And given this cesspool of senseless acts; I agree that some senseless decisions have been and are probably being made in response to those and other acts at all levels in either direction. And for those having to make those decisions, it has to be an arduous task. Sometimes they get it right (which we don’t hear about with great frequency) and sometimes they meet with utter failure (which we hear about before the sun sets on the horizon). So, there you have it, the SNAFUs and FUBARs are plenteous enough to go around. I certainly wouldn’t want to be amongst the one’s having to make those kinds of decisions. So, I want to exercise a bit of caution here with my rhetoric.

I do empathize with you, given your varied and extensive background in public service. Certainly, your recount of various situations pertaining are endless, heartfelt, and gripping.

I agree: No one can know (at any time) what a person will actually do before they actually do a thing or commit an act. But for some there are little warning signs that should cause one to think a little more critically over certain matters, there are usually (as have been found) risk factors and/or direct indicators that should challenge our decisions to do or not do certain things on another’s’ behalf (Or, for someone else). This is not about shifting or assigning blame nor is it an attempt to mitigate them either.

Sometimes we do know what we know, but still make bad choices in spite of what we know, or what our gut tells us (and what our gut tells us doesn’t make it to the evening news), as it pertains to the OP; and this is the lynch pin or sticking point: “He knew what he knew, and he signed the form anyway,” … “This was criminally reckless.” That’s what I perceive their point is.

Nothing more…

Respectfully

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you make a lot of good points. only thing I will add is that the gun should have been removed. after his phycological issue came about and his father didn’t have him charged.
the father signed off on the paperwork. knowing he had issues, that I believe is what the intention is with charging him too. either way this is a slippery situation.
recently we had a case near by where one drunk (owner) gave his keys to another drunk. they got into an accident and the drunks friend was killed along with the driver of the other car.
the guy (owner) that gave his keys up was charged with 2 counts of vehicular manslaughter. different but the same thinking is involved IMHO/ YMMV

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