Thank you.
Hey, look at that, 3 years
3 Likes
Happy Anniversary good sir, we sure appreciate ya!
3 Likes
I was also swayed after having a discussion a few years ago with a former LEO who now is a consultant on school security.
He was actually against teachers carrying in class due to the likelihood that students would eventually figure out which teachers were carrying and then word would spread through the school. This would remove some of the deterrent factor since a wanna be murderer would know who to avoid or target first. But his primary concern was in with schools in gang areas where a gang of teenage students could surprise or corner the teacher and take the firearm.
He preferred vetted and properly trained armed staff that were not in direct contact with students all day long, trained armed security, and/or teachers with quick access to well hidden and securely locked firearms. I feel he had some very valid arguments and the experience to back them up.
1 Like
I consider myself to be a responsible firearm owner. I have had significantly more training and practice than the vast majority of other firearm owners that I personally know who consider themselves responsible owners despite most of them having no formal or even online training and little to no understanding of self defense laws. But I have nowhere near the level of training I feel I should have to carry a firearm in a dynamic, chaotic and often stressful school setting. Let alone enough to respond to an active murderer event when the murderer is surrounded by panicking children and teachers as well as with the prospect of dealing with responding LEOs at the same time.
To ensure daily safety and an effective response to these incredibly rare but chaotically horrendous events requires some solid training and coordination amongst staff and LEOs. Not to mention all the other deescalation, retention and less lethal skills that should be learned and practiced so lesser threats don’t risk being escalated to a shooting incidents when they don’t need to.
1 Like
A core tenet of the disarm everyone crowd is that the very presence of a gun (or even an image of one ) is an immediate deadly risk for all in the vicinity.
3 Likes
Happy Anniversary.
2 Likes
I guess that explains your passive stance on arming teachers in school.
I am not at all passive on arming school staff. I have actively lobbied the local school district to train and arm staff. I have sat down and talked to the local superintendent providing him with examples of school systems that have safely implemented vetting, training and testing programs and currently allow school staff to carry. I provided information on groups like Faster Saves Lives that provide free training specifically geared to responding to school shootings. I have offered to donate money and work with neighbors to acquire more to cover additional expenses for training, gear and safe firearm storage on site if needed.
What have you actively done?
But I am also a realist on the potential problems involved with armed staff, especially teachers in a classroom full of high energy little kids or troubled teens. Life is not black and white. Schools are an incredibly challenging environment. Even with training LEOs have made some very bad decisions when responding to active murderers at schools and elsewhere. They have also mishandled firearms in classroom settings. Just having a gun might solve many problems on the street or at home, but a school full of kids is a way more complicated situation with many more safety issues to consider.
Another significant issue is that the majority of teachers are against firearms in the classroom even in very conservative areas. I have talked to several teachers about this issue and almost all of them think it is a bad idea. Many parents are against the idea as well. Yes, a significant portion of that is due to anti firearm propaganda. But many of their concerns are based on valid reasons and the why doesn’t matter if those teachers and parents are pushing their administrators to not allow firearms on school grounds. They are going to need to be convinced that it can be done safely. The best way to do that is with education and training.
The increasing number of school staff that are carrying are also going to have to maintain a nearly 100% perfect safety record or the little bit of momentum currently swinging towards allowing armed staff will evaporate very quickly. Perfection is a hard goal to get close to even with exceptionally good training. I haven’t seen many people get close to perfection without at least some level of training specifically geared towards the challenges they will face.
1 Like
Well I guess since I’m not an activist I have no position to talk about it, so, I’m Out.
If teachers are armed, expect many reports of shootings. There will be images on the news, one less PC than the other. Forget psycho mass shooters! The issue is if a teacher is threatened with beating, rape, murder today (and it happens a lot!) - there is no choice other than curl in a ball. If you bring the Great Equalizer into the picture, it will be very different.
Should teachers get training? Sure! Krav Maga, close quarters techniques, weapon retention, how not to get stomped by a violent mob, etc. What our schools have become is not going to improve overnight.
1 Like
You don’t need to be an activist on this or any other topic. Just taking care of yourself and your family in this crazy world is enough activity to keep us all busy.
But I do take offense at being told I am taking a passive stance with having armed responders in schools. With my own son currently in school I feel I have made it very clear that I am actively for having armed responders on school grounds. And I have backed my words with efforts. I just strongly feel that there are significant safety issues to consider before letting just anyone carry firearms in classroom settings on a daily basis. The children’s lives are worth taking the extra time and effort to make sure those placed in charge of their safety are properly trained and vetted.
2 Likes
Easily offended?
Not generally. Though when people I respect put me down and misrepresent me to a broader audience I guess I can get a bit touchy.
2 Likes
No Disrespect intended my brother.
In one post you appear to be 100% against arming teachers, in the next you claim to be a 100% advocate of arming teachers. I understand the to be, at least, a soft stance on arming teachers.
I am 100% for having properly trained and vetted armed staff in schools. I am also 100% convinced that teachers with insufficient training carrying firearms daily in a chaotic classroom setting surrounded by children is a poor idea.
I don’t want the person in charge of my son’s safety during the day to be able to buy a firearm the night before and carry it into a classroom full of kids without any training or practice the very next day. Same for a teacher who bought a firearm years ago but has only taken it to the range a couple of times. This would almost certainly increase the odds for unnecessary accidents far beyond the chances of those teachers ever needing or being able to successfully use the firearm against an active murderer.
I don’t think it is passive to be concerned about allowing untrained and unvetted people who are responsible for my son’s safety to carry a firearm around him 180 days of the year. I am actively concerned about my son’s safety.
3 Likes
I understand that this quote is “tongue in cheek”, and refers to the real attitude of government. Can I demonstrate why this represents government hypocrisy of the highest order?
Police cruisers in my hometown used to have the slogan “. . . To Protect and to Serve” on each squad car front door. They no longer do, but the general understanding of most citizens of their relationship to the police is that THAT is their purpose: To protect the people from crime or harm. Not true! And the courts back me up!
Please read the horrific details of the multiple rapes and the lack of sufficient police response that triggered the law suit, and the court decision in Warren v District of Columbia - 444 A 2d, 1 (DC Appellate, 1981). The court held in part that it is a “… fundamental principle of American law”, that no local, state or federal jurisdiction or subdivision thereof can be held liable for failure to provide government services (Police protection, Fire protection, etc.) to any individual - only to society as a whole. Further, that it is the individual responsibility of every citizen to be his/her own first line of defense against crime, “. . . with the Police providing only an auxiliary general deterrent to crime.” This is necessary to preserve our free society.
How can government disarm us and prevent us from carrying out our legal obligation or responsibility to be our own first line of defense, and then argue illegitimately that our protection is a Police responsibility?? They cannot and we can’t let them! This is NOT a decision unique to the District of Columbia, but rather mirrors decisions at many district, state and other inferior court levels nationwide. Since each level has held to the same decision, it has never gone to the SCOTUS. Its purpose is not to avoid just liability but to place responsibility where it is due.
Just as we have Fire Alarms, Fire Extinguishers and/or Fire Hose systems within our schools to act as a first response until the “pros” can arrive, so the realization is becoming evident that the 12 minute average response time nationally to an active shooter incident makes it necessary to have First Responders armed to protect our kids and the staff until the “pros” arrive.
Here in Iowa, we currently have proposed active legislation (HF2586) “In the funnel” to arm teachers and staff voluntarily, and train them intensively to FBI and professional standards, to qualify for professional permits to carry weapons. Those who want to, can. Those who don’t - won’t have to accept the responsibility. We also want to do away with the law banning guns within 1,000 feet of a school and preventing permittees from being armed while picking up their kids.
2 Likes
I have no problem with arming teachers, but it seems it would be more productive to arm administrators and non-teaching staff first. Then the odds of a bad guy getting close enough to an armed teacher and students would be significantly reduced.
If gates and fences mean the bad guy has to go through the front office, shouldn’t the front office be significantly armed to stop any intruder not driving a tank?
Armed teachers should be the last line of defense only after the others have failed.
4 Likes
It is a good 1st step. Also consider that schools, due to misguided policies, sweep some of the crime under the rug. It is hard to keep from the public when a teacher or a student gets beat up into a coma, but smaller incidents of mob and gang violence, rape, armed threats, etc, are hidden from public, though rumors get out.
If you cannot get an honest conversation about prevalent forms of violence in schools, you cannot counter them properly.
4 Likes
Ahhhh. So much could be said on this topic. Very complicated.
I applaud what Utah is doing. But I advocate for as much training as possible.
I found a link in the article that says they do training exercises twice a year. Trained 'guardians,' 'teacher-protectors' armed with guns could respond to shootings in Utah public schools | KSL.com
One of these days I’ll redact my notes from FASTER I & II and post them.
4 Likes
The teacher’s first responsibility is to her/his group of learners. If someone is shooting up the school on a different floor or wing of the building, teachers can’t leave their kids unprotected and go after the bad guy-especially young kids. The FASTER program stands for Faculty Administrator Safety Training and Emergency Response. Agree on the administrator point you made.
I agree with going through front offices. However, the reality is many, many schools were not constructed with security in mind and they are not laid out this way. So they have to be creative with that kind of thing. But I agree with the point you make.
Lots to say here and I told myself I wasn’t going to get into this over my lunch break. =)
I wish everyone that had to address school safety was a level headed as this group on this thread-even though there are some slightly different perspectives.
6 Likes