Here’s a topic for “what if’s”. There’s been so many times when I’ve thought, what if I reacted this way or that way. Would that put me in a better or worse position legally? I’ll start. What if under castle doctrine I make my way strategically down the stairs to investigate a bump in the night. I find an intruder leaving my house with a priceless thing. Maybe a rare pair of shoes or a golden urn. I instinctively pursue. Do I become the aggressor? Say he makes it out of the house but then turns, once I’ve closed the gap, to engage me. Am I the aggressor?
If that priceless thing is worth your life, be that as you literally dying, or you spending your life in prison, then, go ahead and find out.
Or, don’t. Let them go. Better to not find out that you really can put a price on that inanimate object.
My advise starts with getting an alarm and better securing your doors. If somebody has broken into your house at night, it should be more than a “bump in the night”, it should be an alarm going off, and you barricading while waiting for police to respond. The alarm app on your phone should even be able to tell you what windows/doors were breached.
*Unless you have children or other family to possibly make your way to elsewhere in the house, in which case you would of course be more concerned with that than with a pair of damn shoes and the (or at least one of the) intruder(s) exiting would be a huge relief, and you would happily watch them go from as far away as possible.
And remember that training includes mental rehearsal. “The body cannot go where the mind has not been”.
Train yourself NOW not to “instinctively” run out the door after property, risking your life (literally and legally)
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According to castle doctrine, do I make myself the aggressor? Obviously the “right” thing to do would be to hide and call the police. I’m asking legally, can the intruder in your house become the victim even though they broke into your house? Forget the shoes and urn. According to castle doctrine, I believe the intruder entering your house unwanted is a level of aggression that warrants self defense.
What if in a stand your ground state a person tries to car jack you. They do not have a gun but could probably beat you to death. You tell the man your armed and to step away from the vehicle. He’s not in his right mind and decides to try and open your car door. Has he gone too far?
I am not a legal expert so take this advice for what it is worth. Laws vary from State to State but with all the castle doctrine and stand your ground laws I have looked into they all require that a reasonable person in your situation would believe they are under an imminent threat of death or severe bodily harm to themselves or another before lethal force is justified. If a drunk guy breaks into your house and passes out on the floor, castle doctrine does not give you the right to shoot them where they lay simply for being in your home.
In the case of the criminal running out of your house, the threat was gone. Following them and shooting them could put you in severe legal jeopardy. I don’t own anything worth giving a jury the opportunity to take away my freedom and ability to protect my family.
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Think about explaining this to a jury.
So, you were afraid for your life from the intruder. So much so that you left your house and safety to chase after the intruder that left your home…
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In the case of your car jacker scenario. I can just imagine what a jury would think if you told them you shot the guy because he tried to open your door.
Now if you could articulate that you were certain he was intent and capable of severely harming you as he tried gaining entry into your car then you might be able to convince a jury that your actions were justified. MIGHT being the key word.
Locking your car door and driving off at the first opportunity would be the best solution to that scenario.
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In the case were the intruder has left the house but the home owner gains ground leading to the intruder turning back around. This escalates from that into a life threatening Scenario. Maybe a fist fight or wrestling type scuffle. Even if the intruder is still in the house and the home owner attempted to stop him without lethal force. Escalating into lethal force. Is the home owner now the aggressor in both scenarios just because they didn’t want to let the person go. I guess this is a tuff thing to answer honestly because it could probably be used against you if God forbid anything occurred. I get that. Just throwing out “what if’s”
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So when they open the door it escalates. By not complying, is the driver becoming the aggressor. In this scenario the doors aren’t locked. Maybe the driver was just hopping back in the car from a delivery.
OK let me add this angle. The thief turns and attacks you, with a knife in hand. We train in methods of either taking a knife or injuring an attacker with their own knife. So He comes at me, I take his knife and injure him with it. Did that make me the aggressor? Once I’ve taken the knife he is no longer an “armed” attacker?
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Good one! Just because the home owner pursued the guy in that scene, is it indefensible in court? Is he now the aggressor just because he didn’t cheer the guy on as he stole from the home owner? I know it’s recommended to hide and call police but if you don’t, under castle doctrine, I wonder if you could be justified.
When you run out of your house chasing after the thief you are no longer in your castle or standing your ground so you can not use either of those laws as an affirmative defense.
The action of chasing would open the door to a prosecutor and jury considering you to be the aggressor. Not a guarantee that you would be charged but a significantly increased chance that you could be.
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I think most reasonable people would consider that a clear case of defending yourself from an armed attacker. As long as he did not clearly try to immediately flee or give himself up after you took the knife from him. But an overzealous anti self defense prosecutor might still charge you.
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Property crime
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It starts as property crime but escalates, in the guys house, when the guy demands the property be dropped. The intruder, emboldened by all his other victims accepting their fate of lost property, turns back and approaches aggressively.
Big time congrats on the Ultrasound!
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That’s a game-changer, for sure.
If the thug is armed, I hope I trained my brain enough not to hesitate to draw and stop the threat.
However, if unarmed, it means I have a chance to attempt to safely create distance and make it a lesser threat, walk/run away from trouble if I can, especially if I’m the only one in the house.
I’d consider it a win if I come out of it alive without firing a single shot while the thug deals with the cops.
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I ask because I just got done a looong home defense class. In the law portion we went into depth about aggressors. During that portion we just didn’t have enough time to go over all of the what if’s. A jury or a judge will ultimately decide if a person defended themselves justly and saying something like “DROP IT PUNK” or “STOP! I HAVE A GUN AND WILL SHOT YOU IF YOU TAKE ANOTHER STEP WITH MY PROPERTY!” will make a person harder to defend but really, will it!? I thought I’d see what this community thinks as this has proven to me to be one of the most diverse, honest, and rational communities in my world.
Are you in immediate fear for your life? Is there a life-threatening action that they are doing to threaten your life? Do they have a gun?
Okay, what if you shot him? What if? You had better house alarms? What if you had motion detectors outside your house? What if you framed a torso target inside the entrance of your house with 3 center shots and write on it 3 shots 2 seconds 25 feet?
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What if a guy is demanding you exit your vehicle and you refuse? What if a guy stole your wallet and you chase him? Are you then the aggressor? Or are you just a person that wants to keep their stuff. Maybe you catch up to the guy and a fight breaks out. Then your losing the fight and the thief is not going to stop beating you because they don’t want you chasing them. Is the victim now the aggressor?
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