According to the Sgt I just spoke with, the former Sheriff made CCW quals the same as those required for Deputies.
They believe it was the easy way out and no one took into consideration that they’re dealing with civilians not LEOs.
They’re also very interested in what an attorney has to say.
A good atty can certainly defend head shots, what they can’t do is prevent you from being arrested, charged and put on trial, or prevent you from getting slammed with a massive civil suit and losing.
Any attorney and certainly atty’s specializing in self defense will tell you that pubilc perception, politics, and personal prejudices will come into play at every step from the decision to arrest, indict, and prosecute and certainly will effect the the outcome of a jury decision.
Once again, police have qualified immunity that gives them broad protections not afforded to a civilian self defender. Prosecutors will always tend to be prejudiced towards LEO’s and look for reasons to support them tending to always give LEO’s the benefit of the doubt.
Again, this is simply about risk management and exposure in self defense.
If you have a juror that is on the fence and the prosecutor or plaintiff atty succeeds in convincing them that the double tap or Mozy technique you used shows a clear intent to kill rather than simply using the minimum force necessary to stop the threat, that can be the difference between a conviction or jury award in a wrongful death suit you otherwise could have walked away from clean.
That isn’t necessarily true. No matter how jacked up the perp is, when the blood pressure hits 0/0 they are done. Muscles cannot operate without a blood supply for more than a few seconds.
You don’t have to stop the heart or respiration to end the threat. Most shootings do not result in death but they do end with the threat ceasing.
As self defenders we are limited to using only the force necessary to stop the threat, we cannot even be perceived as shooting to kill without the potential for serious repercussions.
Just because they are still breathing or even moving doesn’t mean they pose still pose a threat from a legal perspective.
LEO’s will always get the benefit of the doubt and are generally not liable criminally or civilly as long as they act within policy in accordance with their training, we are not afforded the same benefit of the doubt.
And like I said, in reference to @Roger ‘s post, if they are armed, and still able to shoot, they are still a threat. I also said that they will fight until the central nervous system shuts down. Blood loss to the point of losing consciousness, fits that bill. And, although lawyers may give officers leeway, right now, the public does not. Officers actions are more scrutinized than ever before. Even in a clean shooting, they end up in court. Just ask officer Darren Wilson.
Last, justified shooting or not, you will deal with the police, and have the very real possibility of getting arrested. You very well may end up in court, and, you very well may get sued in civil court. On that last one, for every round you fired. It’s final location could land you in civil court.
So, if anyone puts a bullet in the brain pan of an assailant, they better dang we’ll be able to articulate that, it only was a bullet necessary, but, one to the head was the absolute only way to defend human life.
The level of threat they pose will always be subject to interpretation, and whether you are even arrested will depend on the evidence at the scene, the mindset and politics of those investigating, and those of the DA.
Even with the most perfect claim of self defense if you end up on trial there is no grantee you are acquitted, or that you will prevail in a civil case.
To avoid cuffs, jail, trial, or being liable in a civil suit the most judicious and conservative use of force is the best advice.
Act as your conscience and common sense along with the circumstance dictates and take your chances.
My job is to provide the best information possible to people and try to keep them alive, well, able to live with their decisions, and out of jail/cuffs.
I’ll give one more example. If you have shot an attacker who is in a supine position on the ground bleeding out, still holding his weapon, but it isn’t raised or pointed at you and there is video of you then “putting in a couple of finishers for good measure”, you will almost certainly be arrested, indicted, and put on trial and it will be a flip of a coin as to whether or not you are convicted depending on the jurisdiction you are in.
You will also most certainly be on the losing end of any civil suit.
You can easily be within the letter of the law and still end up losing because of public perception based on the circumstances and the evidence.
No. To avoid all that, running and hiding is your only guarantee. Any use of ANY force can be misconstrued as an act of aggression, not defense.
And again, there are things we can do to mitigate and reduce those risks. Avoiding head shots is one of them.
Everything we do in a self defense encounter is going to be gone over with a microscope by people that have weeks or months to examine our split second decisions.
The decisions to arrest, charge, prosecute, are going to be based as much on politics, perceptions, and personal prejudice as they are on the letter of the law.
Even our entire past histories, online history, will be examined to determine our motives and intent.
If you take a head shot and cannot show that you had no other choice it’s going to be perceived as a clear intent to kill rather than simply use the minimum force necessary to stop the threat. That can and will be part of what determines the outcome of both the civil and criminal case.
Again, apply your best judgement and common sense to the situation and act accordingly, my job is to give the best advice I can to succeed as a self defender and that includes avoiding prosecution and conviction or losing a civil suit.
My opinion is that if you can sincerely articulate your decision for a head shot you will not be judged anymore severely than you would if you fire six shots to the body. There are still prosecutors and, for certain, jurors who believe you should only be allowed to wound the hand that holds the assailants weapon with one shot like they do on t.v. and not use deadly force at all in defense of yourself.
Anyway you look at it you will be under severe scrutiny no matter what “defensive” action you take. It will be up to your GOOD ATTORNEY and yourself (and possibly expert witnesses) to explain your thought process and actions at the time of the defensive action taken to defend and save your life and those around you.
To the bolded, that is certainly true which is why we don’t want to give them anything that can be used against us or that may sway a jury against us.
What follows is true as well, but no atty can guarantee you will not be arrested, charged, and convicted even if you are in every way within the letter of the law.
The personal biases and motivations of the prosecutor, police, and prosecutors will all weigh heavily on the outcome of your case. Don’t make your atty’s job any more difficult than necessary.
I agree with you as far as any guarantees. You probable will be arrested have to post bail and face, at minimum, pre-trial hearings, depositions, etc My point I was trying to make is that six or more shots to the body will be looked upon as excessive by most lay people as they think one shot should suffice to stop a threat. This is where expert witnesses come in to explain all the intricacies of the body and its reaction to the need for multiple shots and how officers have been shot by bad guys who’ve just been shot nine times or more and still returned fire, so a head shot was the surest, quickest way to end the “defensive gunfight.”
To police and prosecutors as long as you’re not doing a mag dump, reloading and shooting into a prostrate body you’re probably be fine because there is no recognized authority that puts a limit on the number of shots to the torso, so six shots to same isn’t going to be a factor unless again there’s video showing you continue to shoot after the attacker obviously ceased to be a threat.
Should you still be indicted which in some jurisdictions you’re automatically indicted anyhow, no one is going to be able to put a recognized expert on the stand saying six rapid fire shots is in any way excessive as long as again, it’s not clearly shown you’re shooting after the threat has been eliminated.
Head shots simply will be treated differently unless it was your only choice which is why we are all taught in every recognized program to focus on high center chest, center mass, or simply torso shots and that’s what we teach.
Again, the letter of the law is irrelevant, it’s all about perception of police and prosecutors, and especially juries.
Attacker holding a hostage? A head shot may be your only opportunity. bad guy peeking around a corner or over a car hood shooting at you, same deal.
In the typical self defense encounter however you’re probably going to have multiple options and if you choose the head shot that can certainly create a problem.
Of course, there’s also the simple matter of the head shot being the low percentage shot and the more difficult to make under stress.
A good example of when you can get in serious trouble for an excessive number of rounds, slightly off topic but since we went there.
The following video is very disturbing and not for the faint of heart.
The officer was found guilty largely due to the fact that McDonald was obviously incapacitated when the 2nd or 3rd shot transected his spine. The officer continued firing however until he’d expendedhis entire 16 round magazine.
It was a questionable use of deadly force to start with because McDonald was only armed with a knife and was not coming towards him but continuing to fire after he was down is when put him in prison for six years with a 2nd Degree murder conviction.
The odds are very high that had he stopped shooting when McDonald went down he would have probably still been indicted but would have walked because he acted within policy so his qualified immunity protected him.
That case was so egregious the city offered a 5 million dollar settlement before a lawsuit was even filed. He is also liable personally because he lost his qualified immunity by violating department policy. I don’t know that they ever filed on it though.
Another interesting case. The shots to the head were pretty well the crux of the argument for his guilt.
The defense had to justify every single shot and were fortunate enough to have the top criminal pathologist in the country state unequivocally that under the circumstance with Brown continuing to charge at the already injured officer he was perfectly justified in continuing to fire until he stopped.
He also successfully convinced the grand jury that the shots to the head were fired as Brown was falling to the ground and that they could not have been fired “execution style” as the family atty and prosecutors attempted to allege which was supported by some eyewitness testimony that was fortunately thoroughly discredited by the forensics and other witness testimony.
Even the ME when examined had to agree which pretty well sealed his “no bill”, verdict.
Under the exact same circumstances even a civilian self defender would in all likelihood have been no billed as well.
@WildRose you bring up another controversial subject; the mag dump.
I’ve run across people claiming to be instructors who say they teach all their students to shoot until they’re empty. I think this is why we see in many police shootings what some judge to be excessive shots fired.
Back in the 80’s during the police academy we were taught to shoot until the threat has ended. Who knows what recruits are taught today, each department sets their individual firearms course & training standards. In the McDonald case it’s not hard to see that the threat had ended when his body collapsed on itself, his body fell to the ground like a sack of potatoes. Now I wasn’t there. I don’t know what the officer was focused on, it appears he goes down knife in hand, so maybe the officer was focused on the hand & knife. Tunnel vision is a real thing folks, if you don’t believe me go through a police training firearms simulator. Tunnel vision + adrenaline spike and dump = ??? Different people will react differently.
What were/are CPDs firearms training and standards?
This is why I’m not 100% opposed to a federal standard of training for CCW holders.
Every dpt I know of has the same “shoot until the threat is eliminated” standard.
I’ve been through a lot of military and civilian training and it varies in significant ways. The little LEO training I had is so dated it doesn’t even apply today.
Across the board in civilian SD training I’ve been tough 3-5 quick shots, assess and repeat as necessary until the threat ceases. Part of this is to avoid “brain lock” that often results in mag dumps because in addition to everything else you are focused on keeping a running round count.
Others may differ but I believe this is ideal. If you put those 3-5 shots high center mass within 3" either side of the sternum (facing) nobody is going to keep coming if you’re using anything resembling a decent JHP designed for self defense unless they are wearing body armor. If they are you drop to the groin area and repeat. There aren’t enough drugs in the world to keep you in n the fight with a shredded descending aorta, any of it’s major branches and a broken pelvis.’
Too much risk for me in trying to count on a head shot and far more likelihood of serious legal complications.
As for national standards, for police certainly that would be a good idea but I could only support it for civilian carry if along with it we got a national carry permit good for all fifty states.
I think we have a far better chance of reaching the goal of a National Right to Carry permit than getting to constitutional carry nationwide or even in the majority of states.
I’m glad you brought up the “mag dump.” I’d wager that most of us on this sight, can fully empty a weapon in under 3 seconds. Some of our members, can probably empty a “magnum” hand gun in that time as well. Officers, that train regularly, could very easily put 15-18 rounds from a duty weapon into an assailant from the overload of adrenaline.
All after Brown had assaulted Officer Wilson, broken his jaw, and tried to grab Wilson’s gun. I followed this case very closely. My wife sees a dr in Flourisant, which is right next to Ferguson. We drove my truck, gas hog that it is, to those appointments a few times. If I needed to drive through a median or yard to avoid a mob, I would/will.
I spent a couple of hundred hours reviewing every aspect of the case. It’s a textbook case for the lawful use of deadly force against an “unarmed attacker”.
I’d drive a hundred miles out of the way just to avoid that whole area.
Yup. Top left is Shackelford Road. Have to go there 3-4 times a year. My head is definitely on a swivel, and I leave extra car lengths for a strategic maneuver if needed. I always carry an extra 8 round mag for my 45, on that day, an extra 8 round, and a 10 round.
Dragging this wayward beast back to the original question… @dawn can you put the question in the original post to the attorneys?