You bring up a good point “smoke screen”. I still have two questions not clearly answered.
if a plea bargain down to a misdemeanor is agreed upon because the client feels it’s too risky to go full out against a felony charge (especially with an obvious bad DA in a liberal area) will the USCCA seek reimbursement and will the USCCA not cover the defendant for civil law suit?
I basically provided the second question above but I still haven’t clearly read whether or not the USCCA provides coverage for a civil law suit occurring after a innocent ruling by the court.
I was with another group for 2 years… I switched to USCCA because they have already vetted lawyers around the nation-- just a lot more piece of mind there.
I just want to jump in on the fray with @Danny28 and @OldGnome. I agree with both of you. The moderators are answering as best they can but the answers are not conclusive on the concerns being raised. Frankly, I cannot say one way or the other if even Tim can definitively answer the questions asked.
The insurance provided to members is purchased by USCCA/Delta Defense for the benefit of members of USCCA and is underwritten by Universal Fire & Casualty Insurance Company. The insurer, UFCIC, not the policyholder (USCCA), makes coverage decisions with respect to the whether coverage is available under the policy.
Insurance coverage is determined on a case by case basis and is very fact specific.
I think a large part of the angst is due to the ambiguity, particularly surrounding the clause that references plea deals. Since as former Judge Sol Wachtler succinctly put it, District Attorneys can by and large get Grand Juries to indict a ham sandwich, one could find oneself as that ham sandwich even though it was a legitimate self defense situation. If the appointed USCCA attorney recommended taking an offered plea deal, would that be grounds for the insurance company to seek recoupment?
I don’t mean to be disrespectful with my questions either. I did research as well and the USCCA does seem to have the best product in this area. I missed the fee recuperation part and was just curious.
Here are the two MUST READ documents regarding your USCCA membership. The first is the membership agreement and the second is the self defense insurance policy.
With the countless variables when it comes to self-defense situations, state laws, local laws, and individuals involved, unfortunately, there is no one concrete answer I can give you.
Believe me, I wish I could say XYZ is the answer, but it isn’t as simple as a one size fits all answer.
@KillJoy, check out COVERAGE A – CLAIM EXPENSES AND DAMAGES in the Self-Defense Liability Policy. You should find what you’re looking for there. I could copy and paste it here, however, I don’t want anything taken out of context or misconstrued due to the nature of this conversation.
I understand your frustration @Danny28. The answer is that there is no simple answer and that USCCA, ultimately, is not the decision maker, the insurer is. I have done MANY coverage opinions for multiple insurers and they are never as simple as a straight yes or no.
The best answer, which is generally the answer to all general legal questions, is “It Depends.” The answer depend on a combination of all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the incident, the insurance policy, including all of the terms and conditions, and the laws that apply to the facts and circumstances and the law with respect to the contract.
I think it is safe to say that everyone agrees that no coverage should be provided for a blatant act that is clearly not self defense, i.e. I break into someone’s home, they shoot at me and I shoot them and claim self defense. Maybe it was self defense since I didn’t think anyone was home, but it was not lawful self defense.
Alternatively, my nephew is at my house when someone breaks in. I confront the person with a weapon but I get knocked out cold. My nephew grabs the gun I was holding and shoot the assailant as he also rushes for the gun. Unfortunately, my nephew is a convicted felon. He is charged with being a convicted felon in possession of a handgun but not specifically for the shooting. He is also sued by the mother of the assailant.
Is there coverage? Should there be?
But there were simple questions asked that should have a yes or no answer. For example -
Does “USCCA provide coverage for a civil law suit occurring after a innocent ruling by the court?” So, make an assumption that it was a valid self-defense shooting. After being found innocent in court, the victim’s family sues you. Are we covered? Why would we not be able to get an answer to that? If USCCA can’t answer it, are we able to go directly to the insurer and ask?
These are basic questions that a new customer would ask while shopping for self-defense coverage. Does USCCA tell these customers “I dunno?”
@JCP, unfortunately, we cannot assume anything due to the huge variation in possible situations and laws. Part of the USCCA membership is to help our members with their criminal and civil legal defense after a physical self-defense incident. If it is not self-defense the legal protection does not apply.
This is part of the section referred to above from the Self-Defense Liability Policy (pdf) (as in the agreement that is valid today, 1/5/21) which explains claims and damages.
@MikeBKY provides two great examples of the billions of possibilities that can happen.
Take just one of these two scenarios and move it to each of the 50 states and to additional counties/cities that have self-defense laws that are not exactly the same as the state laws and you now have 100 or more variations on one scenario.
We want to be there for you and we have to do that legally in each state.
Please read the Self-Defense Liability Policy. There are a lot of answers in there. I do not want to paraphrase or take anything out of context so as to not muddy up the legalese any further.
This is where your are being absolutely RIDICULOUS and hiding behind legalese. You keep saying “If it is not self-defense…” and we are specifically say IT IS SELF-DEFENSE!! And it was ruled self-defense by the court!
You didn’t even answer my question regarding can we ask the insurance company these questions directly. I don’t trust my understanding of legal documents to just read that “Self-Defense Liability Policy” and I know I have interpreted what it says correctly.
When I ask my car insurance company if my collision deductible is waived if the accident is determined to be the fault of the other driver and they responded “well, that depends on if it is the fault of the other driver or not” I would seek out a different insurance company.
It isn’t really that easy @JCP. Every insurance company does a coverage investigation for every claim that is made. In Kentucky, insurers have a duty to investigate every claim. That may be as simple as looking at a police report or as complicated and having a forensics team sift through trash, bank accounts and internet usage.
The simple answer to “does USCCA provide coverage for a civil lawsuit” is no! Coverage for the lawsuit is provided by Universal Fire & Casualty Insurance Company, the insurer who provides the policy issued to USCCA to benefit its members. Does UFCIC provide coverage for a civil lawsuit? Yes, provided it meets all of the terms and conditions in the policy and is not otherwise excluded by the policy. For instance, the policy will cover an act of self defense and will pay claims expenses, compensatory damages, pre and post judgment interest but will not cover punitive damages which are generally significantly higher than all of the other damages combined and are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. They will also not include damages “deemed uninsurable under the law to which the policy is construed.”
