Will USCCA defend this case?

Also, as for exclusions to defense of the act of self defesne, one of the exclusions is violation of federal law (possession weapon in violation of federal law) State law governing no guns signs for businesses are state law, not federal, and would not trigger that particular exclusion

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…and as I always do, I am going to throw out that reminder that, no matter what any particular state says, if you are a user of marijuana, you are federally prohibited from possessing firearms.

Just…sayin’

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Illegal possession under federal law is an exclusion (and there are other exclusions).

Page 4/12 of the policy purchased by the USCCA, Letter I

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@David1371 Welcome to the community :us: :us: :us:

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Good question.

What if we found a second policy by a second company/competitor, who have written in the policy that they would cover the costs?; If one could afford two policies, how do we know who covers what first?

Don’t go into establishments with prohibited signs.

If your’s or your family’s life were at stake, it’s a no brainer to me, regardless.

Like Momma always told us, “Son/daughter, don’t go there”.

If the USCCA will help, I have faith, “they got your back, will watch your 6”, and they are good at what they do. :blush:

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If you find a policy that will pay to defend when you are charged for carrying illegally, let me know.

And the short is you don’t have to know who covers what first, that’s kind of behind the scenes stuff if and when it happens, and comes down to languages in each of the respective policies/agreements. Primary and excess, pro rata, etc, can come into play.

Welcome to the community @David1371!

Interesting question. In my mind, as a member, I would not expect to be covered if I was carrying in a location which had posted that firearms are not allowed. I can easily see the argument that I am no longer legally carrying in that location. I choose to go into that location, I knew it was posted and I was violating the law\rule, and finally I chose to carry there.

As to @David38’s scenario, that becomes more blurred, as I was legal to carry where I was, and only went to the location because of the threat. Did the action save lives, most likely. I would like to believe in this circumstance where I rushed to the aid of victims, that I would not need defending, but if I did that USCCA would defend my actions.

I think the bottom line for me is if it’s posted, don’t go there, if I feel I have to, don’t carry there. I think people can debate for an extended period of time over whose right trumps whose, but bottom line is it was decided by the legislature in the state you are in at the time.

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Thank you, @Nathan57. I think you have clarified things a bit, at least as much as any insurance related subject can be clear.

I’ll put a lid on this pot and stir no more. :wink:

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I was unaware that you work for Delta Defense. This is the first post of yours I have read that mentioned that, and I have been on this forum for several years.

However, that does not matter to me. What is important to me is that you post facts when posting information, which you do, and as you did here, cited the source of your information.

It is good to have knowledgeable and experienced people from the company, such as you, regularly posting on this forum to help its members. I also understand that when you post personal opinions that you do not want to appear that it is endorsed by the company.

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So does this mean that the exclusions only apply to federal law in this regards to signage?

I agree that there is no policy that will cover all legal fees for carrying illegally, if that existed I couldn’t afford it anyways. That’s OJ Simpson lawyer price level lol.

I’m would still like clarification on if carrying into a gun free zone setup by a private business in a state that has regulated the enforcement of signage laws as a crime would be covered in a self defense scenario. If someone was to stop a mass shooting like what happened in greenwood with an overzealous prosecutor in an anti-2A state, they could be facing manslaughter and criminal trespassing for carrying in a gun free zone. Would USCCA only cover half the lawyers legal fees because delta defense will only represent the self defense part of the case?

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This will depend on the state you are in and its laws. In Indiana, “No Weapons” signs do NOT hold the force of law. So in the case of the Indiana Mall shooting, the concealed carrier was within the laws to carry.

In Ohio “No Weapons” signs do hold the force of law so it would be unlawful to carry in a place that is legally marking their private business as a gun-free zone.

This is also why it’s so important to know the laws for your area, the state you live in, and even other states that you may travel to. A great resource for this is our Reciprocity Map here: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/

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Potentially.

The fact that the business was illegal to carry under state law would not in and of itself prevent coverage.

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I know this is at least the second time you have asked this basic question. The direct answer for how that might work is, I don’t know. The longer answer is, I don’t even know if it’s answerable as an ahead-of-time hypothetical. I would at this point refer back to the policy language

So is that one and the same as being

“legally possess the weapon used at the time of the incident.”

You are not possessing an illegal firearm, rather you have a firearm somewhere you shouldn’t.

Welcome to the family brother @David1371,glad you could join us and what a great question to ask. I will be meeting with someone form there tonight and hopefully i will remember to ask them, i will post the info i receive if any.

I’ve asked it at least twice because no one has answered it. How can you say refer to the policy when you admit the policy doesn’t say answer this? Who do I need to talk to so I can get this answer? I called the number on the back of my card, they told me to ask here. Earlier today I called a competitor of USCCA and got a direct answer with 2 examples of similar cases they represented. I’m not even a customer of theirs yet…

Welcome to the Community @David1371
I cannot answer specific questions regarding state laws, other than Kentucky, with any authority. In response to your question, USCCA’s Self Defense Insurance is provided under an insurance policy issued by Universal Fire & Casualty Insurance Company to The United States Concealed Carry Association, Inc., and includes “association members” as additional insureds. A link to the policy is attached.

The insurance company provides the coverage and the insurance company, not USCCA, decides what is and is not covered under the policy.

The policy covers an “Act of self-defense” which “means the act of defending one’s person or others against an unlawful, unprovoked, and imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm by an aggressor, but only if:
1. any force used is both reasonable under the circumstances and proportionate to the threat; and
2. the act is permitted by applicable law.

Criminal acts and “unlawful possession of a firearm” are listed exclusions in the policy so it does not appear that the coverage would apply to illegally carrying a firearm into a “gun free zone” that is criminally enforced, such as in Ohio, or even those where a posting is not required but local, state or federal laws prohibit possession. The claim fails under the policy in 2 ways: 1) it is a criminal act and 2) it is not an “act of self defense.” If a person were forced to defend themselves in such a situation, where there was an act of self defense but possession of the firearm by the member was not lawful, I cannot say how the insurer might respond. As most possession laws do not require any criminal state of mind, but are strict liability, even carrying a firearm in such a location accidentally would be unlawful possession of a firearm and excluded from coverage under the policy.

Here is the Self Defense Policy issued to USCCA which covers its members https://www.deltadefense.com/public/self-defense-liability-policy.pdf

I also do not advocate for people breaking rules, however, like Indiana, Kentucky does not enforce “no gun signs.” It is up to the person who owns or leases the property to request that a person leave and, if they do not, it is criminal trespass. And anyone can be asked to leave for having a firearm or any other reason that the property holder feels compelled to ask them to leave. And, the property holder can ask you to leave and never come back. In the end, people need to decide for themselves if they are going to buck the rules or not. As for me, I am glad the Good Samaritan carried his firearm into the mall and was able to stop the killing. The mall may tell him never to return but he can sleep well at night knowing he got the job done. Or maybe putting down the killer will haunt him. Who knows. I just know a good guy with a gun ended the killing by a bad guy with a gun. When seconds count, police are only minutes away!

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This is the question I would like answered. I’m aware of what the laws are. Is there anyone qualified to answer this question? The title of this thread is “will USCCA defend this case”.

If the answer is no, fine. I just want to know.

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I stand by my initial response

This is in reference to the lawful act of self defense, not otherwise excluded, and not for any illegal possession charge

The simple answer is USCCA does not defend any cases. The insurance company is the sole entity that provides for the defense and indemnity of those insured under the policy.
Construing the policy strictly to its terms, if possession of a deadly weapon is a violation of law in a jurisdiction, such as Ohio, and a person is prosecuted for a violation of that law, the policy excludes coverage for illegal acts and it is not an “occurrence,” defined as an act of self defense or, if it is an act of self defense, the actor was not lawfully in possession of the weapon.
Regardless, it is up to the insurance company to decide whether there is or is not coverage for any specific event, not USCCA.

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