What would make you draw?

I’m just relying to what was stated above.

If the approaching crowd isn’t using hands and feet you’re not going to be harmed.

Never in my entire life have I heard of or seen an attack where a crowd of attackers simply closed in on someone and sat or laid on them. At a minimum someone is going to have to either hit you, kick you, or wrestle you to the ground in such an attack.

Simply being surrounded is not going to be justification for the use of deadly force in most jurisdictions even if the crowd is verbally abusive.

There must be an actual imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death before we can use deadly force lawfully.

I disagree on that. Try being an average sized female some time. If the crowd is surrounding me and preventing me from leaving, we are in a prelude to something worse.

I agree, and you and I see the threat of being surrounded… and what comes next… quite differently.

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I agree with you. Im not female nor am I a small or weak person. If a crowd is surrounding me and closing in they get one warning to back off. Any forward movement after the warning will be an assumed intent to cause harm. I dont think anyone should wait until they are incapacitated to justify defense.

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The situation must be dire & I am left with no other option. I must see a weapon and that weapon must be in a threatening position. The laws have made defending oneself & loved ones something that if you thought about it critically, you would not act.
With that being said, we came home a few months back and the tv was on in our living room. I told my wife to stay in the car as I did draw & proceeded to clear our home. Still not sure what happened that night. :v:t5:


Thanks for explaining @Dan17!

I’ve been in one of those - in a non-emergency type situation at a concert. I was picked up and moved across the entire stadium by pure body pressure. I knew what I was in for when I went to the concert (I was much younger).

I don’t know if I’d shoot in that type of situation now - I don’t know if I’d be able to get to my weapon. I think the best means of self-defense in this type of situation is to avoid them if at all possible. If you’re crushed under or between people, getting to your firearm may be very difficult and I’d rather not pull a knife in such close quarters.

I’d disagree with that given the examples @Dan17 stated, @WildRose. If there’s a flash mob you could very easily be caught up in it and carried away by it, especially if you have little ones with you or can’t move quickly.

I’m going to have to think about that situation some more. Interesting perspective, @Dan17. I’m glad you brought it up. Please remember text doesn’t always come across right the first time, follow up questions are welcome. :slight_smile:

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I just look at it from the very practical and legal side.

What qualifies as disparity of force is different with each individual and the circumstances present. Women from the legal side of things tend to have much greater leeway legally when it comes to the disparity of force.

Men and women may be equal in most ways under the law but men and women are not physically equal and women are more frequently victimized than men so with the XX chromosomes comes a bit of an advantage in the eyes of the law.


If you’re just caught up and carried along with the crowd where is the threat of grave bodily harm or death?

You’re going to have a real hard time articulating a legal justification without a clear threat of grave bodily harm or death.

That is not technically true in all states. In Al. specifically the presence of the owner on the owners property is an enhancing circumstance that A) Raises the level of crime from what may have been a minor misdemeanor to a Class A felony.

Then depending on your record, you are looking at a minimum 10-20, up to life without parole ( Double Bachelor’s degree Criminal Justice, and Psychology).

Some states in the South are quite bloody minded when it comes to crime. But have very liberal ideas on applications of when force can be used, and how much in Alabama. If I am on my property.

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I’m not seeing it. The only justifications I see are in the form of stopping someone committing a forcible felony.

Can you provide a citation?

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For enhancing circumstances or defending my property or both?

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For any lawful use that doesn’t involve a forcible felony.


I’ll take it that you’ve never been caught in a group like that @WildRose. People can even crushed to death in swarming crowds.

When it happened to me in college I ended up with bruised ribs from elbows and crushing pressures.


That’s not an attack, it’s just being caught up in a crowd.

You could not lawfully start shooting into a crowd crush scenario like that.

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Click on Alabama in your dashboard. Then read Alabama laws. If you want statutes I need a bit more detail. Not trying to argue. Just not understanding what exactly you want to debate.

Enhancing Circumstances is under charging and sentencing, and protection of property is kind of all over the place.

No heat here just asking for info. Squatting is not in and of itself a felony but I can forcibly eject you if you do not remove yourself once I become aware of it and request you to leave. I can use deadly force if during the course of that ejection I can reasonably articulate fear of life.

Would I do any of that, only under the most dire of circumstances. I would call the police and let them handle it.

One thing wrong on web page for USCCA, Al. is a stand your ground state now.

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Ok, you’re going right back to my original point wherein you’r not defending property, you’re defending your own life.

Ejecting a squatter forcibly is not defending my life. It is defending my property.

Ejecting a squatter is using force but not deadly force.

I’m still hoping for a citation that explains your position.

I can not tell if you are being obtuse or you just want to be right. To be honest, I’m not sure what you want. So you win. It’s not worth the waste of time.

I said that under Alabama law I can use force to defend my property. I never claimed I could come out and Rambo the place up. Someone trespassing down deep enough into my property to steal my lawnmower I can legally go out and use force to stop him. Am I going to? No it would be a stupid risk in my condition. I would call 911. Try to be best witness I could, and if he got away, oh well I lost a $200 lawnmower. But I would have the option to go out and stop him forcibly.

Force is force, and any amount of force can become deadly force. It says clearly that I can protect my property with force if need be. I’ve shown and told you where the citations are at. You don’t like my answers. I’m sorry. Doesn’t change em. In Al. you can use force to defend your property. I’ve done it, neighbors have done it, friends have done it. Mostly people breaking into their automobiles.

So can we say you win and drop this. I have no idea what you want. I have even gone back and re-read everything I have said to see what has you riled up.

I am not going to go through the entire Alabama criminal code, if you want to have at it.

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@dawn can get the team to revise that

That’s included in the last line of the description at the top of the page. :slight_smile:

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