Untraceable Ghost Guns

I misspoke in my initial post - it was the lower receiver, not the trigger assembly! Thanks for the catch, @Joshua33.

I knew I had to do a background check for one of the pieces for my son when he was building his AR - I mistakenly thought it was the trigger assembly. He could have bought a fully built AR without me (he’s 19), but the lower receiver as a stand alone requires you to be 21 to buy.

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Because it can be made into a pistol or rifle, and pistol requires 21 years old to buy… I think that’s why.


if you buy an 80% lower, it does not need registration. That’s the route most AR builders I know go.



If you buy that 80% lower, the jig for drilling the trigger assembly holes I’ve seen for $500.

Granted, more people than I can afford such a jig but maybe sometime next year, I could.

But I want to look more into the legality if such things. If I do build my own lowers with such a jig, just be for personal use to build myself inexpensive platforms for general use.

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I don’t mind any type of firearm… Untraceable guns or kits are ATF approved as long as it doesn’t fall over the 80% Law Standards. I’ve built an 2 .308’s custom and 2 AR’s 1 12.5 barrel and 16 inch barrel all custom MILL. It’s more of hobby than anything else. This society wants to blame any type of gun but it was made inside a home or a basement of a home. Maybe instead of forcing false flag maybe push a message about parenting in America…
In 2017 according to the CDC, Estimate 10,100 Deaths by the use of Motor Vehicles. People build oldest and even modern vehicles as a hobby. Should that render the fact its possible cars being customized have a strong chance of causing Motor Vehicle related Death to another Human Being???
Sounds dumber than bad joke…
This country ignores the fact about firearms that causes states to disarm citizens, An Armed society is a much safer society… No criminals have ever attacked a Police Station, Prison and anytime of Law Enforcement Agency ever in history… They only attack gun free zones and prey on the weak (DISARMED CITIZENS, GUN FREE ZONES)… In a matter of minutes will be out numbered…
I wonder why these Politicians, City Leaders, Government Officers, even anti-2A all push towards an agenda to disarm the population but GUARANTEED; Every single one of the Security Details Officers are well armed all have guns for self defense and Personal Protection. Because they all know there a fundamental truth behind personal protection. LIBERALS ORDER THEIR SECURITY DETAIL TEAMS TO GIVE UP THERE GUNS BUT EXPECT LAW BIDDING CITIZENS TO HAND OVER THEIR GUNS…

I think you mean anti-gun people DON’T order their security… (Missed a word and used a goofy :wink: word in there, @rwsisson) :smiley:


So I have to go back to the roots of why things have serial numbers…

  • SNs often include manufacturing date/lot, or can be linked to manufacturing date/lot
  • SNs allow tracking of manufacturing issues, when there is a quality problem (to go back to a lot or a date and determine what other guns manufactured at the same time might have an issue, maybe do a recall)
  • SNs allow the manufacturer to notify the buyer if there is a problem with the manufacturing of the lot (recall) if the buyer has registered their purchase with the company

and IF there is registration:

  • SN can be used to track a firearm back to it’s owner.

There is NOTHING about serial numbers that can do any of the following:

  • prevent a mass shooting
  • prevent a murder
  • prevent an accidental shooting
  • prevent a suicide
  • match ballistics at a crime scene with a specific firearm or owner
  • prevent an unauthorized person from handling a firearm
  • prevent an unauthorized person from buying a firearm

So given that the above is true, having a gun with NO serial number only impacts the ability of a manufacturer to gather failure report data and perform recalls.

If the firearm is home-made, the person who made it isn’t going to be doing lot-quality data collection or issue recalls - so it totally doesn’t serve any purpose.

Correct me if I’m missing something here, but I’m not seeing the problem with “ghost guns.”


Right… hahaha I can’t multiple task and don’t mind admitting it… Thanks for the back up lol :slight_smile:

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BOMB!!! When you speak I’m taking cover… hahaha! Don’t hurt em like that there, that was deeper than the Atlantic Ocean… Well Said indeed…


Federal LAW says that it IS permissible for an individual to manufacture a firearm for their OWN PERSONAL use. They can’t sell it, can’t trade it, can’t give it away and I don’t even think they can pass it on. There is some debate about engraving a personally manufactured firearm but as far as LAW goes it is not required. In the case of AR-15 or AR-10 lowers you CANNOT add the extra cut out and hole for the Fun switch because you cannot legally manufacture a NFA weapon after 1986. I personally would not like to be in possession of an 80% lower jig and the appropriate M-16 trigger parts all in the same place as there is this thing called “intent”.

As @Zee points out, all the data that a serial number provides is maintained in the head of the owner.

Is it an “end around” of the system, Yes. Is it illegal, No. Will they get you in a world of Humm just on optics, Yuoooo betcha’. Am I thinking they are handy to have? To quote my favorite rabbit “Mmmmmm, Could beeee”




I agree with @Craig6. I posted an excerpt from the ATFE’s website with cites to the laws and regs. It is absolutely legal to build your own gun from scratch for yourself as long as it is not NFA restricted.


If you read an article in MSM, understand that meaning of some words may be different from common sense. E.g. to me traceable means that a crime can be connected to the gun and its owner can be charged. SN connects a gun to the owner, for the purpose of, e.g., making a buyback offer you can’t refuse, but not in any sense that helps detectives.

Anyway, rifling=traceable, always. Striation marks, you know. Smooth bore -not traceable.

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The only illegal gun is a stolen gun. Serial numbers shouldn’t even be a thing, unless someone chooses to serialize their own guns for inventory purposes.

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Interesting to note that Kalifornia now has a background check to buy ammo. Typical anti-2nd reaction, they are using the shooting to get more gun control rather than admit their latest law failed.


I was listening to Tom Gresham’s show and there was someone talking about a LEO in some town needing to purchase some ammo for a training exercise his department was having and because of the new laws the officer was not able to purchase the ammo to serve out their duties, despite his Sgt, Training officer and some other LEO leader at the department calling down to the shop.

It was comical and sad at the same time.

Story starts at 39:20 …….


I just thought about this. In the OP, they say a ‘ghost gun’ was used in a crime. But, they have the gun. So what is the problem?


It is just misdirection. The real issue is that inexplicable act of mass violence happened. It was not revenge, crime of passion, psychotic breakdown, terrorism, etc. Very concerning.


I know this is old, and I addressed this issue with you on another thread, but, like I am now, if someone is reading this later in time, I feel the correct information on “home-made” firearms should be included here.

One is legally able to sell firearms that are “home-made”. It is not legal to be unlicensed and be in the business of manufacturing and selling firearms. Does an individual need a license to make a firearm for personal use? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Further, on that link it states “In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF.” That would mean that one is also legally “allowed” to manufacture NFA items, but not machine guns, will need a tax stamp (prior federal approval) to do so legally. Also, I have not found anything on the ATF site about the requirement to put a serial number on a home-made firearm before it is sold. How can I make and register an NFA firearm? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

This information on what is required/suggested when transferring a firearm in a private transaction: https://www.atf.gov/file/58681/download It does not mention that a serial number must be on the firearm. I could find no citation requiring firearms previously manufactured for personal use requiring a serial number when transferred.

This site states that a serial number is not required when transferring your home-made firearm, but I could not find a valid link to the ATF where it is specifically stated, except when discussing licensed manufacturers: Are Firearms without Serial Numbers Illegal? - Pennsylvania Law Abiding Gun Owner Blog

One other irony of our arms laws I just found while researching information on the ATF site, a Q&A fact: " Are muzzleloading cannons considered destructive devices?
Generally, no. Muzzleloading cannons manufactured in or before 1898 (and replicas thereof) that are not capable of firing fixed ammunition are considered antiques and not subject to the provisions of either the Gun Control Act (GCA) Gun Control Act | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives or National Firearms Act (NFA) National Firearms Act | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. [26 U.S.C. 5845; 27 CFR 479.11] Last Reviewed April 20, 2020"
Are muzzleloading cannons considered destructive devices? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

So, an old operational cannon, that I would believe no one would claim to not be capable of horrific destruction, is not defined by the ATF as a destructive device, but a breach-loading cannon, regardless of size (apparently), is a destructive device. One has to love government logic.


Hopefully you won’t find too many more of my unintentional errors but I applaud you for making sure the content is correct.




I have just been reading this site a lot lately since I have had more time on my hands due to this virus BS. I wasn’t trying to find any errors. :innocent: I don’t want you think I am trolling you. (I am, though, feel my eyes on your back? :stuck_out_tongue:) No, and I am sure I have made errors in fact in posts, too.

A number of people I know have built firearms, both handguns and rifles, from 80% lowers. Each had a slightly different take on home-made firearms, whether or not they could be sold, needed an identifying mark when sold, aka serial numbers, etc., that made me decide to research it to find the truth. That led me to the ATF site, where I got the information.

There is a lot that people “know” that is just 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand, that they don’t really know, just part fact, part fantasy. My quest is to find the truth as best as I am able to discern it. Also, it is another piece of knowledge to use to counter the anti-rights disinformation and lies. The more I learn about firearms, and the related laws and regulations, the more I understand and appreciate the 2A and its strong wording of “shall not be infringed.” With all the pruning of our RKBA, our Liberty tree is standing about 5" tall. The last real one died in 1999.