Strange conversations when it comes to Active Shooter Training---pardon my ranting

Yes there are trying-to-be-cute ammo names out there like RIP and DRT

And in my experience most people see DRT as Dead Right There. Similarly to how DOA is Dead On Arrival

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Well my thoughts on the type of rounds I use in my EDC is that I want to avoid any pass through and If i have to put any one down,dont them getting up at all,and that is what I mean when I sat I train to have no renorse

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In another topic, I was speculating about this very idea. Everyone has been trained to run. Individually, that might be the best option. But in many “mass shooting” events, we’ve seen that the large crowd can simply not evacuate fast enough through the limited exits. In a scenario like a theater or a church, it seems that the best way to reduce casualties is for the crowd to attack and overwhelm the shooter.

I don’t expect Grandma Mildred to run at the shooter with her walker. But if enough adults focused on the shooter instead of the exits, the shooter could probably be stopped quickly in most situations. That would reduce not only the number of casualties in that event, but might also prevent future copy-cats.

Folks think I’m nuts, and maybe I am. But if people are interested enough to attend active shooter training, maybe it should focus on more than just “run away.”

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I agree. Maybe after a few of them are torn limb from limb, this crap will stop or at least slow down. It sounds like the Q Club patrons did a number on the shooter.

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I so wish LE and LSM would drop “active shooter”.

I’d accept spree shooter or mass shooter, not that anyone cares what I think.:smirk:

Additionally, we all know that cops are the Only Ones properly trained to use firearms. :laughing:

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IIRC, the propane tank bombs at Columbine didn’t work/detonate.

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Active shooter may or may not be a mass shooter depending on when the description is given

It’s a pretty universally agreed and understood, and apt, description. I don’t think it’s any different to use the term shooter in it than it is to use the term gun in defensive gun use. Is what it is

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Yeah, I think there’s some value to the situational description, as well. A person who has been disarmed might still be a mass murdering piece of garbage, but he’s no longer an “active shooter.” If you’re a LEO running into a mall, you’d want to know if the situation was still active or not.

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Any officer with that mindset needs to be DQ’ed, in a lot of areas the Street Crime Units (SCU) are all plain clothes units, and being SCU’s they are quite often the first units on the scene as they normally are not assigned dispatches.

As such if a uniform arrives on the scene and see’s a couple of folks carrying gins and open fire on them would have taken out some of his own brothers, which will land his butt in prison for a long time.

And yes they do have ID’s normally hanging from their neck and would have called in 97 at the scene, but in the heat of the moment that might not register with responding units.

Because of that one just doesn’t go into a scene and start shooting everyone who is armed.

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Not true at all, they expand to transfer as much force as possible into the target, but they do not explode.

Now if you where to shoot something like a small round watermelon with a hollow point, the me;on will explode, but that is due to the shock wave of the round passing through it.

And that also happens in living targets where the shock wave can damage organs, even if the bullet doesn’t make contact with them.

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Sorry using the word explode, but when the round hits liquid,it builds it does build up extreme internal pressure and basically makes mush of the internal organs,I read an article where a hunter guide in Fl. with a client had the client freeze up,so the guide had ti fire at the charging wild boar and when they looked for exit wound could not find one but noticed both eyes were blown out and the guide was using DRT rounds,so they do build up extreme pressure internally,so I guess that is when I started using the term explode

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It seems that the training officers main advice was to minimize legal/financial liability, not survive or defend. Also possible he had the" Your not in uniform so are inferior attitude"

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After reading the initial comment & all of the responses, it appears very few have actually done research on or trained for active shooter incidents. My first recommendation is to research & train so you “program” yourself (prepare) for such an incident. Don’t rely on your Thoughts/guesses as to what will happen. If you watch the videos of active/mass shooters, you will see that the first thing the masses do is not run; they hit the floor.

I am a retired police officer (30 yr active duty) with significant training in active shooters, terrorism, etc. I have also been involved in, trained for and researched church security/safety for 35+ years. Here are my responses, based on my training & experience:

What the training officer said.

If there is an active shooter in your church, and being a CCW holder, fearing for your life you return fire killing the active shooter, an unknown to you accomplice emerges and unexpectedly kills you. The trainer is telling you to be aware of your surroundings!

What I should have said—
In that case there would only be one active shooter, not two, and the active shooter that was dead would have relinquished his firearm which another parishioner could retrieve to fight off the second active shooter. Beats throwing hymnals.

You trust an untrained attendee to acquire & use the weapon? Good chance their inexperience & lack of training will result in more innocent deaths. Throwing hymnals or anything does more to disorient the shooter than you may think.

What the training officer said:
When the police arrive, they’ll shoot anyone who they perceive to be a threat (armed, meaning me.) Reality is, even if you are wearing a DSM banner (as suggested later) and have your gun out, 80-90% of the time, an officer will perceive you as a threat and likely shoot you. This is based on training exercises!

What I should have said—If the police had arrived in time, the active shooter would have to shoot it out or surrender. When the police arrive, if I’ve survived, my revolver would be back in my holster, concealed. Returning your gun to its holster before the cops arrive is the wisest thing you can do, if that’s possible.

What the training officer said:
If there is an active shooter, run out of the building. The parishioners will follow you. That’s consistent with USCCA training -“The best way to win a gun fight is to avoid a gun fight!” You may want to direct others out while you cover their 6.

What I should have said—All the exits will be jammed with panic stricken people and the physically challenged, medical professionals rendering aid and lawyers handing out their business cards to the injured, which would be the easiest targets for the active shooter to kill as they would all be concentrated at the exits and quickly not going anywhere. Exits could get jammed but the medical pros will not enter until the police render the scene safe. Lawyers will not be handing out cards as the police will keep everyone not involved at a safe distance.

What the training officer said:
You’ll be responsible for every round you fire Truth - There will be a thorough investigation and you WILL be held responsible for EVERY round that leaves you gun, intended or not.

What I should have said—It’s the same at an ATM, convenience store and in my own home. I’m trained to choose my shots carefully and if I didn’t have a clear shot I wouldn’t engage. Correct but not necessary to share with the instructor or anyone else.

What the training officer said:
If confronted by an active shooter and there’s no escape fight back with improvised weapons, like throwing hymnals Instructor is correct. If you don’t have a gun, improvise and use what ever is available, hymnals, fire extinguishers, golf balls, etc.

What I should have said—
Why would I do that if I have a CCW permit and can possibly fight back with a revolver? If you are in a setting where you are prohibited from carrying a weapon, you may be unarmed!

Your responses to the instructor appear cocky to me. If that’s your attitude, it will likely get you & others killed.

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That WILL NOT WORK I WAS AT WALMART FRIDAY, and I seen at least twenty plain clothes openly ! They were not bad guys ! IN TEXAS. THE LAW KNOWS JUST ABOUT EVERY ONE THAT SHOPS CARRYING A FIRE ARM ! I do Not See anyone FREAKING OUT! KAZ they have door greeters! That are PAYING ATTENTION TO STRANGE ACTING PEOPLE PEOPLE ARE NOT AS AFRAID AS THEY WERE BEFORE , CONSTITUTIONALLY CARRY! THE BAD GUYS ARE THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO ACT STUPID! IF YOU ARE TRAINED YOU KNOW HOW TO ACT ! A conceal to carry permit dose not MEAN THAT YOU DO NOT LOOK SUSPICIOUS GET TRAINING BY THE USCCA AND YOU JUST MITE BE ABLE TO DEFEND YOURSELF AND FAMILY AND OUTHERS AND NOT GET !!! BLUE LEAD POISONING OR UNDER COVER , POISON ! TRAINING IS THE BEST WAY TO BE ABLE TO SAVE LIVES AND KEEP YOURS ! You see SOME ONE WITH A SIDE ARM , YOU CAN TELL IF THEY ARE UP TO NO GOOD IF TRAINED. SO I BLEAVE LET ME KNOW IF I AM JUST WRONG THE HAIR STANDS UP ON MY NECK THEY HAVE MY FULL ATTENTION !

I Just TRYED to read what I wrote and I better find my glasses KAZ I Read what I wrote and do not understand it sorry ! I JUST MEAN TRAINING WILL TRAIN YOU HOW AN WHAT TO LOOK FOR ! AND WHAT TO DO ! SO YOU DO NOT MESS UP YOUR LIFE THE RESON I OPEN CARRY IS IF A BAD MAN OR CRAZY PERSON WANTS TO HARM INNOCENT PEOPLE THEY CAN START WITH ME AND I KNOW BY OPEN CARRING BAD GUTS KNOW I AM NOT EAZY ! AND IF I DO GET SHOT ! JUST MY BE THE GOOD GUYS WILL HAVE A LEAST A WARNING ! As to where the threat is a who And if that can save just one life it’s worth it An no I do not have a death wish ! AND JUST MY BE THE BAD GUYS WILL NOT WANT TO WISH TO DIE EITHER ! No matter I will never set back and do nothing and let people die if I can help I will ! NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE ! I COULD NOT LIVE WITH MY SELF KNOWING I AM TRAINED AND DID NOTHING ! Jesus hates a coward ! AND STUPID PEOPLE YES I WOULD RATHER BE INJURED OR KILLED ! THEN UNARMED PEOPLE THAT HAVE NO WAY OR TRAINING TO DEFEND THEM SELFS OR THE COURAGE TO.!

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I also carry a knife to use to distract the shooter when I throw it at them till I can shoot.If you are in church God is with you so you do what has to be done.

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@BobbyJean
I think the best way to distract a SHOOTER is with a bullet to center mass not showing him a gun. Also if there are many people open carrying it changes things and less likely a shooter incident will occur. When one person is open carrying if it doesn’t deter the shooter it will make them the first to be shot and is taking the unnecessary chance that there be someone conceal carrying.

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Read your rant word by word. Couldnt have said it any better. My note along with you is oppose to doing nothing. Do something!!

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Although we can open carry,i do not because as you said you will be the first target to go down

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