I get where you are coming from and agree with your premise. IMHO church security is much more to the bent of asset protection or executive protection than room clearing and such. Your asset or principle is the congregation and the threat will be within that or attempting to penetrate from the outside to gain access to the asset or principle. Essentially the sheep dogs protecting the flock in the pen. Your either outside the pen patrolling the perimeter or inside the pen preventing the wolves from entering OR dealing with a wolf in sheep’s clothing INSIDE the pen. Then there is the issue of the little lambs in a separate pen. Much more interdiction from within than entry and clearing from without. The fella in Texas that took down the bad guy with one shot after the bad guy got off a couple of rounds with a shotgun comes to mind.
Not to elbow into how @Gregory144 perceives his operational space, but I think the asset protection or bar bouncer model works best when considering a lone attacker within the main worship space.
If considering that there might also be a need to:
defend against multiple attackers;
defend congregants outside the building;;
interrupt attacks in other areas of the facility;
(e.g. multiple small “sunday school” classrooms or other dispersed activities)
interdict barricaded attackers (i.e. a “sniper” position);
…then the mission will become more complicated and require mobility. Very challenging stuff for a volunteer force with diverse and limited capabilities.
You missed my point totally but it’s OK I’ll try to walk you through. The original author ask a question my response was to that question. If you are part of an armed church security team your job is to protect God’s people which means engage and put down the threat if possible, otherwise why be armed. Hence my statement of training
Taser and CCW within church (sorry for the subject change)
Had a very interesting conversation with a fellow CCW holder today at church. I asked him if there was a Taser that he would recommend. He stated none. He carries his sidearm and nothing else, not even a knife. Because he believes that if he was involved in an incident armed with both a Taser and a sidearm the DA would want to know why he did not use less then lethal force even if the non-lethal option was not really an option. I.E. the subject was too far away to deploy a Taser. He thinks that you can only carry one weapon at a time to include a knife. Anyone have any thoughts about this? It reminds me about the advice I got a lawyer friend one time. If you going to carry a bat in your truck throw a glove and ball in there too to give him something to work with….
Why didn’t you use your fists or feet or elbows? You likely always possess non-lethal options in addition to that firearm.
I’d personally worry more about “if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail” resulting in using a gun when you shouldn’t, because it was all you had…than having your lawyer defend why you responded to an imminent deadly threat with a firearm.
And if you aren’t carrying something else, let’s make the argument “the defendant used a firearm when lethal force was not justified because it was the only thing the defendant had”.
Prosecution may argue pretty much anything regardless. I don’t think it’s possible to choose your carry, or not, in a way that prevents any of those arguments from even being made.
How about the ammo you carry? FMJ? That’s military grade there’s no reason for a civilian to have that. JHP? Those are expanding cop killer bullets not even allowed in war. And round and round it goes
I don’t worry what the DA might think or say, I worry about the instant response I expect to need in a threatening crisis. I prefer to set myself up to make and act instantly on a simple A/B decision.
Do I perceive a reasonable likelihood of serious injury or death? if so, GO! If no, WHOA!
Is lethal force justified? If yes, use it. If no, don’t.
If I fail to avoid a conflict, I do not expect to have time for contemplation about whether I face a threat justifying a Level A, Level B, Level C, or Level D, etc, etc response — that is a probable lose going in. Could I lose by making the wrong call with just a single force option? Sure. Is it more or less likely that I would make the wrong call with a whole sack full of tools to pick from?
You decide you. I’ve decided me.
(Actually — even without more holsters — I already have lethal, grapple, skedaddle, and submit from which I will need to select.)
If I were a cop, with a duty to wade into trouble, then I would need more force level options. I would have some level of protective armor. Probably I would have more time to select an appropriate force level before wading in or being set upon. Ideally, I would have lethal force standing right over my shoulder or arriving momentarily. I’m not; I don’t; so I won’t.
I have seen a new non lethal self defense weapon, similar to a taser, but using a type of paint ball that has different powders inside the ball that break on contact and incapacitate the attacker. It is called a Byrna is fired from a CO2 powered handgun. Maybe something like this would be an option as well. Just another option.
There a few of us at church, to include a retired LEO, who do have some background in take down techniques. But the discussion started out with figuring away to have a standoff non-lethal option which turned to a Taser Plus that has a 15 feet reach so we could reach someone across a couple rows of chairs where we possible could not reach them out wise.
But your “hammer” and “prosecution may argue” comments is a great point and ones that I am concerned about.
Eugene50
You give me food for thought and I think in the end me and my family are the ones that would will be “holding the bag” no matter which way it goes. Which may make me stop and think when I should be acting……
Cecil2
Good suggestion and something that we had discussed but had decided that in the confined space of a sanctuary they would work against us.
I wonder about this. How do security teams train to avoid shooting a friendly.
Do you involve the entire congregation on at least the initial discussions and request that all who carry concealed at least bring it to your attention?
Does the entire congregation know who’s on the team?
In a very small group this would seem workable. In some of the megas around now, it seems almost impossible.
We have the blessing of having a retired LEO who conducts our training. And you’re correct even with a congregation of just a few hundred per service and knowing most of the congregation it is impossible to know everyone that is carrying. Let alone who may be carrying a Taser or some sort of teargas. The best we can do is plan the best we can and let God take of the rest……