Should I Shoot - Officer in Trouble?

There may well be a statute I’m unaware of but I don’t know of any state that has a duty to assist police officers with the exception of doing so when asked or ordered to by an officer. Even in this case It’s going to be a snowball’s day in hell when someone is charged for not using deadly force to assist an officer who is in trouble.

Just remember, if you choose to do so unlike the officer you are assisting you have no “qualified immunity” to protect yourself either civilly or criminally should you intervene and accidentally harm an innocent third party or the officer you are trying to assist.

In some states you’d literally be better off risking being cited for a failure to assist when ordered than doing so because of that lack of “qualified immunity”.

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@WildRose. Very good points. It’s sad that we have to take the time to consider those consequences.

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I chose call 911 on my phone. Not sure what I’d do after that. Ask if it’s OK to intervene?

I have a bad back and suffer from sciatica so I am not the strongest person in the world. I would really have to “see it” and make sure I’d be safe if I intervened. Also, living in NY, Gov Coumo would probably demand to have my sorry behind thrown in jail no matter what I did just because I am a gun owner.

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Just keep in mind that it literally only takes a second or so in a grapple like that for the bad guy to get control of a cop’s firearm and you will be on the phone with 9-11 for several minutes if you’re the one calling it in.

This is like a school/mass shooting when several lives can be ended in a second or less.

Since there’s a crowd present I’ll let them do the calling and not waste precious seconds or minutes.

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I appreciate the feedback WR. I found an article that might help someone trying to make the calculation to become involved or not. Tactical Professor blog Worst Possible Case and 100 Percent Standards

As many will point out what we CAN do needs to be seriously weighed against what we know we are prepared to do.

May the worst never happen.

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Direct someone to call 911. I draw and yell a warning to stop. Advising the perpetrator I will shoot if he does not. Firing after non compliance with the order.

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Absolutely. You need to recognize and be honest about your limitations.

As you get older and more feeble that becomes a lot easier. :grinning:

Of course, when you get to the point where you’ve lived y our life, your kids are raised etc and you are closer to the end than the beginning many of us become far less risk averse because we have very little to lose compared to the 25-40yo who still has most of their life ahead of them.

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There is a uniformed police officer in a marked car in a deadly force encounter with a person who appears much larger, stronger and is now armed with a baton. The baton, n KY is a deadly weapon, so the use of deadly force for the protection of others would be authorized under the law. There are also some other indicators, the smell of pepper and taser wires, that say the assailant is exhibiting signs of drug use and/or psychosis and may exhibit no pain response and excessive strength. This is truly an encounter where every second counts. If I can safely take the shot, I take it. If there is an issue with the shot, a warning may create the opportunity to take the shot or try to reorient to take the shot.

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Mike this is a situation where I think the “Doctrine of Necessity” would trump all in most jurisdiction.

My premise is that in a grapple the suspect can gain control of the weapon in mere seconds creating an “Imminent deadly threat” even without having a baton necessitating immediate action to prevent grievous bodily harm or death to the officer and those in range of the weapon.

How far off do you think that is?

There might be a jurisdiction somewhere that you could end up charged but you’d almost certainly have every LEO in the state and most of The People" in your corner all staring down the DA that was arrogant enough to charge you at least in my mind.

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I absolutely agree that the officer’s weapon is still in play and could be turned on the officer, if she is still alive, and on the crowd. But, the doctrine of necessity as a defense was not available under common law for the use of deadly force. Kentucky has similarly codified this in our penal code. Kentucky also grants both criminal and civil immunity if a person uses justifiable force against another.

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Unfortunately since if you ever find yourself in such a situation you will likely have seconds or even a split second to make that decision so you need to do the mental work prior so if/when the situation arises you don’t find yourself unable to react in a timely manner no matter what you decide.

From “Warrior Expert Theory”, 'Recognition is what defines and sets the expert apart from the average person".

If you already have a flow chart of scenarios and proper reactions to same in your head the time necessary to make a decision is almost instantaneous.

This is part of why I feel that mental training and prep is 90-95% of successful, lawful self defense.

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Looks like I really need to step up my mental game.

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If there’s any one thing we can all improve upon it’s our mental planning and preparation.

The problem is that until you’ve considered a given set of circumstances you cannot have come up with a way to deal with it and the possiblilities scearios wise are pretty well endless.

Again though I like to focus primarily on the most common and likely, then the less common and likely followed by the least common and likely.

Whether it’s physical or mental training all of our resources are limited so that’s how I like to set my focus and divide the resources accordingly.

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I carry to protect myself and my family. I would certainly go for my phone before my gun.

Youve got to have clarity of the situation. There are frequently bad shoots due to assumptions and mistakes.

I believe I’m going to go for my phone, take up a superior position with barriers or cover, call 911, maybe make verbal commands. At the point the aggressor charges me, I have clarity of the situation. I most likely would not even draw my gun until I was being charged.

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At first, I thought of the potential compromised mental condition of the assailant, reminded of recent police involved shooting in Milwaukee. The reason for the fight is irrelevant at this point. But, once bodily harm/death is imminent, my use of force is justified.

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Bad shoots by concealed carry holders are exponentially lower than for police.

Last time I did the math… .You are five times more likely to be unlawfully shot by a cop than by a permit holder.

You are right though, we need to the greatest extent possible have clear lines drawn when it comes to when we’d be willing to use deadly force in a third party intervention of any kind.

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I guess I should explain myself further here.

I would not go for my firearm because of the crowd. If they had to part a little for me to see what’s going on then shooting is likely going to hit someone I don’t intend to.

Secondly, the bystander effect is very much a real thing, it actually takes people doing something to get those in it’s grip to notice other things, then usually screaming to actually get them to help. In my years working security I’ve seen this many, MANY times.

Third, while the assailant is likely on drugs of some sort there are certain things you can still do to the body to immobilize it. Stomping on the back of the knee as hard as I can is not only going to put them in the ground, it’s likely to dislocate it. From there I’m much better able to control the subject, wrestle him into the officers handcuffs and then try to provide first aid to those in need.

The crowd, provided they haven’t shifted from “bystander” mode to “mob” mentality is far more likely to help me at this point if I haven’t produced a weapon. Especially considering the officer is female. If they shift to mob mentality then the blow to the knee of the assailant is going to keep him from being able to chase very well at which point I can help the officer get out. If they’ve gone to a mob mentality then bringing my firearm out here will give them pause, hopefully long enough for me to retreat with the officer.

There’s a lot of things to process in just a second or two in this scenario. You HAVE to be able to act decisively yet still be able to alter your course. The training I’ve gone through is what has lead me to this course of action and I really honestly don’t recommend it for those who aren’t having to put themselves “out there” as a part of their career. Honestly I’m only even putting this out there because it’s different than others choices.

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I am afraid that I would leave reason behind and immediately charge the bad guy and tackle them off of the cop, especially if the cop is one of my relatives or friends who are in Law Enforcement. I understand that this is about the worst possible thing to do, and I’m not saying that it’s the right thing. I can just see myself doing it, which is why these things are so important, because now I have an idea bouncing around in my head saying “DON’T DO THAT, STUPID!”

Now, at first glance, this feels like a tailor made situation for that tactic (no idea what it’s called), where you basically tackle and straddle an enemy, stick your gun into their side, hold your slide to keep it in battery, and pull the trigger.

I notice, however, that this has not come up in a discussion that consists of what are essentially more experienced, better tacticians than I am. So, my question is why not? Am I missing something in the situation? I have no experience, so I am looking for information.

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“Contact Shooting” or “Entangled Gun Fighting” is an extremely high risk encounter and should be avoided at all costs except as an absolute last resort.

In such a situation it won’t be possible to guarantee you can control the weapon at all much less sufficiently to guarantee that if it fires only the bag guy is hurt.

In a crowd this raises the potential for unintended casualties to the extreme not to mention the high risk of ending up being shot yourself.

There’s also the considerable likelihood your gun will be taken away from you, used on you, the person you were trying to save and innocent bystanders.

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If you are defending yourself there is a chance you can hurt an innocent party. If you are defending a third party who is innocent - say your child or spouse - there is a chance you can hurt an innocent party. The same goes for protecting a police officer. And that’s where your USCCA membership protection comes in!

I normally don’t push memberships through the Community because the purpose for the Community to help everyone become educated and trained for their self-defense, however, in this instance it is part of helping people be most prepared for their legal self-defense. Everyone can find out more about USCCA Membership here.

I would alter the command as you don’t want anyone to think that you’re out the attacker - you’re out to save the officer’s life. STOP, BACK AWAY, DROP THE WEAPON OR I WILL DEFEND THE OFFICER (or other innocent person).

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