Shooting Competency for Carry Permit?

So… y’all, just a gentle nudge to keep it friendly. We don’t do heated arguments here, so a request to keep it in the high-civility zone.

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The flaw with the Eddie the Eagle program was that it didn’t teach safety, or any understanding of firearms, it simply reinforced the premise that firearms are bad, evil, scary things that we should fear.

I can’t see what I’m suggesting being any more objectionable than fire, tornado, active shooter drills or even driver’s ed.

In such a program kids never even need touch a firearm to learn the basics of gun safety but it most certainly might go a long ways towards tearing down the fear of guns being instilled to them by the anti gun left.

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I think I’m being quite civil actually in spite of the repeated jabs.

Not a bad idea but that would only expose about 2-5% of the kids nationally to these programs while 100% are bombarded daily with anti gun messaging from their schools, media, and the anti gun leftwing politicians. Moreover it would be pretty redundant since it’s the kids in private, charter, and home school situations that are most likely to have gun owning/pro gun/ conservative or libertarian parents.

I’m not that old and I’ve lived through a period where in the US we’ve gone from something like 75% of people being very pro 2nd Amendment and anti gun control to where less than 30% of people owned firearms and gun control was the rule rather than the exception nationwide.

We’re losing this battle and we’re probably less than a generation or two away from a serious effort to repeal the 2nd unless we get serious about defending it with more than bumper stickers and slogans.

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Please remember, not everyone here has the same opinion and we’re good with the differences as long as they’re expressed respectfully. Long posts and repeatedly asking someone to answer questions when they state their opinion can be taken as rants and attacks.

I’m glad everyone here is passionate, but please realize tone does not always come across well in text.

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Exactly and we’re all entitled to our opinions. I don’t see how asking someone to defend a position or reexamine it politely is in any way a problem or why it should be considered to be.

We never learn anything new or come to change a position without it first being challenged and reexamined.

I’m open to listening to anyone and will discuss anything reasonably and politely with those willing to enter into such a discussion.

Asking them is fine, @WildRose. Repeatedly asking them the same questions comes across as badgering.

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Fire drills, tornado drills, and yes active shooter drills are to teach people how to behave in an orderly fashion in a crisis. Drivers ed, is only required if you intend to drive. Someone who is blind, obviously doesn’t take drivers ed.

In this country, it is the right of an individual to not like firearms, and to bar THIER CHILDREN the use thereof. Just as much as it is our rights to keep and bear the same arms. I do not want ANY government official deciding what is the correct and required class in what MY child is taught about firearms. Just because I have the right to teach my son about guns, does not mean I can impose my will in another in opposition to their right to not use, touch, look at, a gun. That’s why I said Eddie Eagle. Firearm safety training or not, a child should get an adult if they find a gun. Have I taught my child about firearms? Of course. They are a part of daily life at my house. The very first thing he learned was, they are not toys. His single shot .22 is right next to my 12 gauge in the gun cabinet.

If we believe that we have a right to require anyone to submit their children to training/education that we see fit, then by the same token, they have the right to indoctrinate our children with what they see fit.

Here’s a prime example,
My younger brother was born in late 1980, I was born in 1978. He started hunting in his early 20’s, I started hunting in my mid 30’s. A few years back, Illinois passed a law saying anyone born after Jan 1, 1980 had to take a mandatory hunter safety course to obtain a hunting license. So, he with more years of hunting experience, had to take said course. I did not. A government agency decided that if you were of a certain age, you met the requirements to hunt. It’s the same government, that would decide what level of competence is acceptable to deem a person “safe” to have a firearm.
We talk about not having our 2nd Amendment Rights infringed upon. Mandatory gun safety, outside of they are potentially dangerous, is an infringement of those individuals rights.

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And repeatedly dodging the question wit rude replies is?

I believe in respecting the rights of others very much but equality requires both sides of an issue be presented equally.

We’re losing this fight because for the overwhelming majority of kids all of the “education” they get about firearms is coming from the anti gun left.

Our values are shaped primarily in our youth and if we don’t expose them to the truth young there’s a very high likelihood they will never be interested in it as adults.

We get excited that somewhere around 16 million Americans now have a license to carry and that’s good news, but it’s only a tiny fraction of the 160 million or so voters that will be eligible in 2020 to cast votes across the nation.

I’d love to hear a better suggestion for how we get the majority of kids exposed to the simple truth that guns are morally neutral, that they don’t cause crime, and that keeping our gun rights protected is critical to preserving all of the rest of our rights in the future.

I see a lot of anger directed at my proposal but no practical alternatives to accomplish what I think we’d all agree needs to be accomplished.

I’m all ears so fire away.

I’m sorry, I’m moderating from my phone on vacation and must have missed the rude comment. The ones I’ve seen have pretty much agreed with you.

If someone doesn’t want to answer you, let it go. Asking them again in the same exact manner isn’t going to change their opinion or open their mind.

Just gonna go with this… NOone is obligated to post an answer to your question. If you think they’re being rude, flag the reply and let @Dawn handle it… that’s her job.
I’d like to continue to learn from you and what you have to contribute… I do that a lot better if everyone keeps to the high road.

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Elective, voluntary gun safety courses would be more palatable for most people. How many young people learned a new skill, because they enrolled in shop, or home economics? Or band, or art. Young people are curious. We, especially a lot of the people from this online community, are ambassadors of the gun. We can offer our knowledge, and have a chance of being well received. Or, we can make demands m and harden the oppositions stance.

I’m with you, in believing we need to educate more people, but, we can’t force them. The old saying “You can lead a horse to water, but not make him drink.” If you try to make him, you get kicked or drown the horse. You’re a USCCA instructor. Maybe volunteer a free class to some early college students. Or volunteer to talk to some jr high students. Yes, it sucks that we would have to have permission to teach something like this. But, we don’t want to take the same road that the anti-2A group does.

You’re right, no one is obligated to answer anything here but you can’t have an honest discussion unless both sides are willing to ask and answer questions honestly.

Insulting someone for asking honest questions seeking honest answers isn’t a route to enlightenment.

Ok, fine but how do you expose all the kids to the education if it is elective?

100% of the kids are being exposed to a constant barrage of negative information about guns and gun owners that is provably false and only a small fraction of them get any exposure to the facts.

This shouldn’t even be a political issue at all any more than teaching that 2+2=4, or that the earth rotates around the Sun, rather than the reverse.

All of the facts are on our side here but we have no way to counter the 100% negative message that 100% of our kids are bombarded with daily resulting in the majority of them becoming adults who fear guns, gun owners and have an overwhelmingly negative view of the 2nd Amendment.

Guns are morally neutral.

This is how firearms operate.

The intent is always decided by the person handling the gun.

Never handle a gun you are not familiar with, have permission to touch, or without supervision until you are an adult.

Without our firearms rights being protected as we see the world over tyranny rises and by the time it gets to the point people can’t tolerate it they have been disarmed and can’t do anything to change it.

A very simple message and one that no only can save lives by reducing firearms accidents, can change the negative mindset constantly being reinforced in our schools and by our media.

@WildRose I share your fear about education and the impact of indoctrination on the 2nd amendment. Two generations of college indoctrination have certainly shown what that can do to the political environment.

That said, short of a societal breakdown and civil war I don’t see that the kind of educational mandate you suggest can be implemented. Even if it’s the right answer, it can’t be done, so for me it’s a non starter.

Aside from that, I’m not sure it is the right answer because of the radical hate it would gin up in the opposition… and motivating and consolidating the opposition is not a great plan for success.

If I’ve learned anything from the success of liberalspoliticians its the power of relentless persistent chipping away. It’s a highly successful strategy and we should be all over it every day.

The other thing is that you have to have facts as well as spin. Charter firearms schools would be a place to build a track record. It could actually be done and it could be built on.

I worry that we’ve woken up too late. I worry that the city rules will overwhelm the country ones… its happening in texas and that’s proof it can happen anywhere. But because it’s late, we’re better pick strategies that CAN work and ones that let the opposition keep complacent.

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Full disclosure. Zee and I were having this conversation in private and she asked me if she could make this post public and I agreed. I’ll also share my reply.

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… hence my strategy for charter schools :slightly_smiling_face: … because that is a place where you can build the model, show safety record. and build the stats that will allow you to expand the program.

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Ok I think we got off on the wrong foot here and it is as much my fault as anyone else’s. Let me state my position clearly.

In public schools I think:

Yes we should have and require fire drills
Yes I think we should have and require active shooter drills
Yes (if in an appropriate area) we should have and require tornado drills
Yes (if in an appropriate area) we should have and require earthquake drills

Yes I would like to see some type of a required firearms safety course in grade school.
This could be as simple as a video that is played for the entire class twice in the school year.

I am NOT saying I think there should be a mandatory class where children are required to handle or even see an actual weapon first hand in the class room.

It would be a great thing if there were an elective class that kids could sign up for (with proper parental permission) where they could actually handle, learn to make safe, disassemble clean and reassemble a firearm. And finally (again with proper parental permission/approval) go to an approved range and fire a 22 rifle. I am thinking this would be offered somewhere during the junior high (6th - 8th grade) level.

This is my opinion and I hope I have stated it clearly.

@WildRose, my apologies if you took my comments as a personal affront, my response to you was worded poorly and I should not be respond when tired or before my morning lifer juice. I welcome questions and debates, I just need to make sure my brain is in gear before my fingers take over (they can be so evil). Once again, my apologies sir if I have offended.

Don

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Done. As you can see now that the smoke has cleared we’re not very far apart. In fact we’re in 100% agreement.

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