Real SD Moment is <2seconds?

True it’s a technique that was used effectively no knocks here

Can’t knock what works right

Depends on circumstances/context, how works is defined, and how its measured, and what the alternatives are.

Are there articles or sections of books I could look up about putting the dot on the back of the slide to use in place of the sights that are top of the slide? I haven’t read or seen anything from a known source on that, honestly

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It’s in practice among a small circle

I doubt it is the case but I once saw a demonstration of a close quarters aiming technique that involved indexing the gun to the target by looking at the back of the slide. The guy teaching it had the rear of his Sig paint with some bright green marks.

The idea was to point the pistol at the target to cover up the center mass with the back of the gun.

I played with the technique. It was fast and reasonably accurate up 7-10 yards. I didn’t find it much accurate than point shooting (unaimed shooting) or faster than taking a flash sight picture.

Thats the only practical ap I have ever seen for a contrast color on the rear of the slide.

Don’t unlearn what works 99% of the time for works for 1% of engagements

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@Timothy282 Welcome to the USCCA community. :us: :us: :us:

It’s kind of awkward to simultaneously sight and photograph, but I tried to capture how the geometry of these things look to me. All photos were taken at a distance of about 4 feet, aiming at a 4-1/2" circle.

First set is laying the front sight onto the point of aim with a rather sloppy alignment — hits pretty close.


gun remains stationary — left is what the shooter sees; right is where the sights are actually aligned.

Second set is setting the rear of slide onto point of aim with similar sloppy alignment — oops, bystander.


gun remains stationary — left is what the shooter sees; right is where the sights are actually aligned.

That’s why I try to line up the front of the gun, rather than the back. What the special commando guys do is fine if it works for them. The important part of a bad guy will be more than 4" across, but at 3yd, 5yd, or 7yd, an end plate aim will be farther off target than a front sight aim.

A third set is pointing from about chest height with 3/4 to full extension — hits again.


I’m looking for the front sight to make a line from eye-to-hand-to-front sight-to-target — I’ve practiced eye-to-hand-to-target since learning to stand on hind legs. Marking the rear of the gun seems only to help find where my hand is located — I got that. Spotting the front sight confirms that my grip puts the muzzle in that line.

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Lots to consider here. The new trend is to have laser optics. Ive tried them once…hated them. I run Tru Glo tritium on all my handguns-tritium requires no charging from ambiant light…they are way bright.

As for actual laser sights, they look cool in movies when someone gets painted up with them.

That said, if that moment arises when you need to burn a round, you wont be thinking about your sights…especially if you get regular range time, and run different scenarios while at thebrange(from the holster, jams/stove pipes, and movement)

Fight or flight will get your heart rate higher than youve ever experienced…so practicing situations where your heart rate is elevated and your hands are shaking and youbarentrying tonregain your breath will help prepare you for a bad situation.

Now, aside fromnthat, having a good vantage point and being aware of all your surroundings isnthe best eay to avoid ever having to pull the trigger…so training as to situationalnawareness isnkey, as is movemwnt to cover/from cover, etc.

If you consider the zillion scenarios that maybarise, the type of sights/optics you may consider become less than afterthought. It is more important to know your carry gun, keep it clean, and to strive to stay in an aware stste, so as to avoid having to shoot. But if that time arises where you are in a life or death situation, you wont be looking for a red orngreen dot, but for center mass and a retreat point.

Know yourself(how your body reacts), know your gun, and know your surroundings.

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Some people say they never saw the sights, some people say they saw the front sight dot more crisp and clear than anything they have ever before seen in their life. Some have seen slow motion sight picture with slow motion slide recoil and case ejection while seeing the sight rise and fall, others don’t even remember unholstering the gun was just suddenly in their hands and then the next thing it was all over and they don’t even remember firing for sure. Some heard nothing, others heard muffled sounds, yet more thought the gunshots were the loudest thing they ever heard.

I’ll wager the people winning defensive gun uses at 15-20+ yards saw their sights.

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If a bad guy is 45-60 feet away from you and you are engaging in a gunfight with him, youre doing it all wrong.

That said, if you are for some reason having a battlefield level engagement, at 60 feet, of course you need to use your sights…

However, the average gunfight in a civilian defensive engagement is 21 feet or closer …that is anpoint/shoot situation and you are focused on your target, and his movement towards you. Thus, you wont see a red dot or a green dot or a tritium sight…you probably wont notice a muzzle flash unless its in your dark house at night, at which time youll be temporarily blinded.

Ive been in shootnhouses, combat courses and real live gunfights…everyone rracts differently, but up close and personal, you wont see the sights.

Maybe you won’t see the sights up close and personal…and maybe the scenario that is presented won’t be up close and personal, and sights will be needed.

No way to know until after the fact, better to be prepared for the very real possibility of shooting beyond up close and personal (not that 21 feet is really up close and personal, but, 3-6 feet is common and qualifies). Then again, people miss at 2-6 feet commonly.

In DGU and OIS I believe the long running stat is that 80% of shots miss. Might be that more training to pick up that front sight, without having to think about it, it just happens, so that, under stress, it happens…is a good thing to strive for

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All this talk about draw, aim, & fire. No one has mentioned an item pretty much anyone can carry down any street in the world w/o excess attention- A hardwood cane.
I haven’t seen a municipality yet that requires a cane permit. Let alone training…
If the bad guy already has his gun drawn throw it at them. At the least it’s a distraction. Best case a KO.
Someone with a knife charges you from within 20’ there are many options:
A, upside the head = fight over, 0 chance of collateral damage
B, right to the solar plexus = fight over, 0 chance of collateral damage
C, knock the knife out of their hand = even playing field, 0 chance of collateral damage
All of these will also buy you extra time to process the situation you find yourself in.

I’m less than 100% certain that most persons, without training, could use a cane to just knock the knife out of the hand of an attacker, or throw it on a drawn gun for a KO, or one swing knockout. The firearm is more of an equalizer.

Now, if you could have a good hardwood cane, and a firearm, and training on both…nice

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Canes are hard to conceal. :wink:

Just kidding. I don’t carry a cane, but I have strategically placed baseball bats in my house for the same purpose.

I wouldn’t put money on those outcomes no.
But having it in your hands when being rushed is an advantage over getting enough time & space to draw a firearm. Add to that, most criminals are not usually well trained, the ability to have it in places law abiding citizens aren’t allowed to carry, plus the absolute swagger a cane adds to ANY ensemble, and I’ll keep using it.

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I will start by saying i did not read most comments as i want to give from my own personal feelings on this. In certain circumstances a laser can be a game changer, just like a weapon mounted light, red dot or compensator. I have personally been in more than a couple armed encounters and walked away unhurt. Almost all the things listed above i use on my edc handgun or carbine .

I remember a time not long ago when the people on forums were giving an opinion on red dots on handguns saying things like why do you need them? , the batteries will fail, they are unproven, irons are fine etc. Etc. I have been in firearms training for almost 30 years, i have seen things change and fads come and go.

I will tell you this, if you will put the time and work on it it can be an asset, just like any other piece of kit. If you dont train with it dont bother.

If i were you you should have a basic understanding of point shooting or what i call indexing. 2nd master the use of iron sights to the best of your abilities. 3rd understand and train with a handheld and weapon mounted light. Do c you know th3 difference between flood and spill? Umbrella vs baseboard lighting and when to use it? 4th after these other things try a red dot equipped hand gun and see how well you can use one(they are absolutely the way forward and i was running them when they were not cool) and understand their strengths and weaknesses.

Last, once you have mastered hopefully or at least become proficient, absolutely get that laser, they do have a place if you understand when and where they need to be used. I will say above all else get training, pick the brains of instructors and make your own decisions on what works for you. Dont let others here including me tell you what you need.

I eagerly look forward to what you choose to run, your thought process on it and the training you decide to run with it.

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I believe what you say I was in a couple of fire fights out of country and depending on the adrenal rush psychotic elimination does happen when prepared for the fight no elimination when ambushed I found that depending on what type of device was used from the enemies upon us depending on proximity you lose more senses either concussive force or something else makes you not hear unfortunately you get used to it after 3 tours not the action but the adrenaline hit I guess it’s a combination of what you described

I’d like to thank y’all so very much for the insights. Thanx for the link to the videos that confirm that in many true self defense shooting cases, time is very short, adrenaline high, and options are a good thing to have. I have ordered and received the Armalaser TR26G green laser sight for the Hellcat. This is an “instant on” laser (no button) and very bright even in full sunlight. Grip the gun, it’s on. I have ordered a custom AIWB hybrid (and hopefully comfy) holster.

Common among most of your responses was of course to TRAIN as much as possible WITH whatever EDC configuration you use. Agreed. When the holster arrives, I’ll be doing lots of draw and dry fire practice as well as a level 2 tactical self defense course followed up by lots of range time. Assuming America is still free by then. Canada is gone, OMG!!!

Will let y’all know how it works out. And thanx again for all the insights.

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A quick follow up. Received the Armalaser Tr26G green INSTANT ON laser. Fits great and very bright. Grip the Hellcat, laser is on. No buttons to find.
Also received my AIWB hybrid holster, fitted (perfectly I might add) to the Hellcat / Armalaser instant on laser combo. Fits like a dream, slow in, fast out. Ride and cant seem right on but is adjustable. Very comfy indeed.
By the way, the holster is from Tommy Theis at www.Theisholsters.com as recommended by Armalaser themselves.
Started draw practice dry fire very slowly then gradually faster. Clearly, this is exactly the result I was looking for. Using cell phone video, I can now put a steady laser dot inside 2”circle repeatable in 1sec from fully concealed (under the shirt) while taking one step back from the threat (lawyer advice). Lots more practice to come.
I am confident I can now take this setup to qualified USCCA SD tactical training and hone techniques properly.
Thanx again everyone for helping me think this through. If Heaven forbid I ever do have a true SD moment, I will be looking to achieve the full draw, grip, sight, trigger sequence. Even though I’d need reading glasses to crisply see the iron sights (then would not crisply see target and beyond). Comforting to know that there will also be an instant indicator of on target (and not endangering beyond) well before that. 1second might be life saving.

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