Plan to resist carjackers in Chicago

MitchR, I need to offer my apologies for my previous post about your “damn birdseed” and the color of your gun. It was rude and uncalled for and it was completely wrong for me to respond to a legit question in such a way.

Your follow-up posts helped enlighten me on the circumstances of your trips to Chicago to support your online business and staying in touch with friends and family. To suggest “well, just don’t go there” was flippant and criticizing the color of your gun was just downright mean, whether I know your circumstances or not.

I apologize.

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It’s all good brother, apology accepted.

I have 400,000 social media followers (pet bird universe).

Rhetoric is cheap but actions have consequences.

BTW that’s how I “steer” social threads.

Start with a worthwhile premise then add content based on the trajectory of the conversation.

Thus my apologies for drawing you in.

This is one of the few refuges that at-the-end-of-the-day folks believe guns are tools and not evil.

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I’m still warry about thinking of firing a warning shot, especially straight up in the air. Plus, the risk of ricochets. If I have to shoot, if I really have to, I might focus on center mass or what I can most clearly see on the target.

I appreciate the advantages of a bright colored gun. I have given that much thought about when I go camping, my firearm is black, and hard to see especially out in the woods. Interesting point Mitch.

Those videos are compelling. On the one near Willis Tower, the armed robber easily got that door open, I wonder how that was. If that was Willis Tower, that’s far from the worst part of town. How many times have we double parked in our cars? I think I’ll not turn on my blinkers/flashers on from now on. That robber got the drop on the driver; Even if the driver was carrying CCW firearm, that crook already is pointing his. What does one do in that situation, as in that above video?

In your second vid, also not even in the worst neighborhood of that city; That gentleman seemed to react pretty quickly, but sadly outnumbered. I was glad that none of those reporters criticized the gentleman for being armed himself – shooting in self-defense.
The news reporter said that in November 2020, that city’s car-jackings doubled that year, at 1, 260

I had saved up for an “armored safety vest”, but need to wear it more often.

All the more reason we should support Illinois to open up its reciprocity; That’s worth fighting for. Off to more training.

One of the best educational topics I’ve seen, thanks Mitch; You’re also a great “sport”.

Mitch,
If you’re interested in following the law, just know that a warning shot that endangers other people and breaks the law has the potential to strip you of your ‘innocent party’ defense.
In Chicago, from what I read, reckless discharge is a class 4 felony, and describes your ‘plan’–irresponsible.

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@Daniel228 , check it out–you’re not accurate in your assumptions.

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This is from my former attorney of 20 years:

Dear Mitch,

I can’t give legal advice anymore since I have been elected by 1.4 million people to be a judge. I work for all of them now.

So I can’t tell you how foolish it would be to carry a weapon in the city of Chicago. Weapons charges in Chicago are all referred to the US Prosecutor’s office so if convicted, you would have a federal record. That might affect your ability to travel.

So don’t do that.

I know several criminal lawyers in Chicago. You should consult with someone about weapons laws before contemplating carrying a weapon in Chicago.

I will get back to the thread after speaking to a criminal attorney

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Thank you. Great food for thought. I wonder if that Judge was referring to if the person carrying, and using a firearm, was a person without a permit, and unjustifiable (20 years ago)?; Hope so. IDK.

As opposed to a person CCL licensed and who “used” justifiably in defense of his or her life (as Illinois legalized CCL only 7 years ago)?

Interesting post and follow up threads. Tough questions. Seeming to involve critical thinking and reasoning, training tactics, and the law. I wish IL would honor other state CCW CLL licenses/permits, and I will try to do my part to fight for that, because as you nicely shared, big cities like Chicago have a lot of violence, including gun-related, and any one of us can experience risk of being a victim. At a USCCA free educational training event in which I attended, they gave each of us a book, free/complimentary, related to your great questions:

Titled: “SHOULD I SHOOT”?

The USSCA online store has it for $30

You are a gentleman Mitch. :+1:

I actually said somewhere that a bullet falling out of the sky at terminal velocity can pierce the human body. I’ve been in New Orleans on NY eve and drove through it - in a school bus.

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So far this thread has been interesting and engaging but lacking in solutions other than “don’t go there” and “just drive away” ~ which is not a “defensive plan”

Let’s ramp up the discussion by asking the same (now 4 ) questions:

  1. Simply show my robin egg blue 9 mm and hope that’s a deterrent?
  2. Fire a vertical warning shot and hope that’s a deterrent?
  3. Wait till an assailant gets close to the driver’s door and shoot him?
  4. HOPE you don’t get shot

Then watch this video about a Chicago shooter (3 weeks ago) using a pistol randomly shoots 7 and kills 5 people in apartment lobbies, a drug store, and restaurants over a 3-hour rampage across the city.

If you carry, what’s your plan? I bought my first gun at 68 last October (subsequently increased the collection) so I’m looking for answers. If I have a chambered pistol on my person what should my thought process be if someone else has a gun and could possibly shoot me? Nice going Chicago PD (not).

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“He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.” – Sun Tzu

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” – Sun Tzu

The best defensive plan is always to avoid being caught in a fight. More often than not, getting into a fight happens because of our own bad decisions. The best decision is to avoid these situations with forethought and awareness. I always try to do everything I can to make myself an unattractive target.

Once you are in it you are stuck with your horrible option number 4 regardless of how capably you respond.

Sometimes people just get unlucky and end up in the wrong place at the wrong time despite making the best decisions they can. In that case the best first choice is still to get the heck out of there. If they have the drop on you then you may need to try distraction or deescalation strategies. Pulling a gun on people who are already pointing their guns at you is like challenging Usain Bolt to a foot race and giving him a head start. Something like tossing them the keys and running like crazy may be the best option. If you can’t avoid or flee then you may have no other choice but to fight any way you can. The more training you have the better your chance of succeeding. I highly recommend taking some quality self defense classes if you haven’t already.

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Mitch,
I don’t miss my frequent trips to Chicago. I went there for work 2-3 days a week for a couple of years, and had to cover the whole region (including Gary).
Keep your head on a swivel, always be in condition yellow.
One shooter scenarios (as described above) provide you with a fighting chance. Multiple attackers, not so much.
I’m not seeing many viable options for winning/surviving a fight with multiple attackers.
The only other thing I’d say is time your trips to be between 9 and noon–most of the criminal element is not known for early rising.

Yes, most likely you’d get in trouble for unlawful intimidation with a firearm. This was a difficult thing for me, because I was trained for years that “show” was a step in the escalation of force, to show that you were armed and give your potential target a moment to reflect on his life decisions before things get deadly. But in many states- Indiana being one of them- this will get you in trouble. Bottom line, don’t unholster your firearm unless you’re ready to pull the trigger, with all the consequences involved.

Even if no one is hurt, you could still be charged with some form of negligence or firearm related misdemeanor. But worst case is that some innocent person is hurt by your bullet. How could you live with that?

Depending on the state, you may be justified in using a firearm to prevent someone from gaining access to an occupied vehicle. But you need to be able to articulate or prove that this was the case. If your story is that you shot someone who came too close to your car door, you could be charged with murder.

Only slightly related: just last week I walked out of a gas station and attempted to get in my car. Except it wasn’t my car, it was another car of a similar color. And it was occupied. The poor lady sitting in the drivers seat looked absolutely horrified. She might have been justified in shooting me, but luckily her door was locked and she didn’t have a firearm in her hand. Stuff happens, and initial appearances don’t always tell the whole story. That’s why these kinds of encounters are so stressful. Shoot too late and you could be a casualty, but shoot too soon and you could kill and innocent person.

You’re asking good questions.

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Regrettably, I’ll no longer carry into Illinois based on (non) advice from my former attorney whos a Cook County judge here statement was posted somewhere above.

The risk is too great to receive a felony charge (even if it’s 1/10 of 1 %)

Today my current attorney friend ~ drinking/shooting/biker buddy answers the same question I initially posted at the beginning of the thread


Quite the arsenal you’ve accumulated  -- too bad the cost of ammo these days are making their recreational use an expensive hobby.

Short answer to your ‘loaded’ options is “none of the above” in my opinion.  Just having the gun in your car in Illinois without the proper accommodations is a felony – and the proper accommodations renders the gun unusable for the sole purpose you are bringing it into the state:

https://www2.illinois.gov/dnr/hunting/Documents/TransportYourFirearmLegally.pdf 

The fact is, I have a hand gun in my Escape, and even though I can drive around with it in my lap with impunity, I don’t.  It’s buried where it would be useless in a car jacking, which is the whole point.  If a jack is your biggest concern a gun is more of a hindrance than a deterrent.  Your chances of getting shot go up 1000% if you have a gun  -- and you’ll lose the gun on top of it.  Give ‘em what they want and let ‘em go asap. 

Another reason why I don’t keep a firearm handy is that the vast majority of these are committed by kids, and I don’t really want the thought of killing a stupid 13 year old on my mind forever, even if ‘he deserved it.’  And with the illegal weapon you would have, you would be doing time even if you shot someone in self defense – assuming you’d even have the chance.  Avoidance, avoidance, avoidance. 

Besides, we both already have built-in the best prevention against a car jacking:  Our age and driving shitty old vehicles.  No one is jacking cars for transportation – they all are pulling up in cars already.  They want to joy ride back in the hood.  No joy riding when you show up in an old Escape:  “hey bro, you drivin’ a cab now?  HAHAHAHAH.”  Not worth the humiliation, and there are better targets everywhere.  Old guys don’t have the fancy phones and neither of us look like we have any serious cash.  Nature’s camouflage works in the streets too.  

Stay healthy.`P
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I was able to read your attorney friend’s words by sliding the post to the right and or by copying and pasting it. I liked some of your cool friend’s points, and should toast a beer to them:

  • Avoidance - as ‘Shamrock’ upstairs highlighted.
  • Grey Man - blend end, low profile makes sense when not trying to attract the attention of someone out to use violence, or harm.
  • Do not CCW carry a firearm if your’e not licensed in that state to do so.

In my humble IMO (IMHO), though your friend may have been lightheartedly making good convo, I’m not so sure that being elderly, equates with not being a target by criminals, and not all retired folks have the rusty clunkers, especially if they are retired with a pension and that is their only go to car; Not unlike the retired fire-fighter who was in the video you posted.

You are “good-sport”, and thanks again Mitch for an incredibly great post. I do learn a lot from your generation, me being younger. :blush:

My late wife was a bird breeder for many years, Very dangerous business we almost starved to death several times. Everything from finches, to peach faced, cockatiels, goffin’s, and blue & gold macaws. Ooops forgot the African greys. The seed and hand feeding formula kept us in the poorhouse.

I hear ya George98 which is we don’t breed nor sell birds ~ just the supplies

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Forgot the vet bills. She got scared over a suspected beak & feather disease infection and we watched the $$$$ fly. The most humorous moment I remember is when she had a necropsy done on a deceased parrot. She asked what the causes of death was and he answered UAD. She asked what UAD meant and he said Up And Died!

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Warning shots are for the movies. Irresponsible and likely illegal. Anything other than STRAIGHT up, which is not likely or really even possible and it’s still got forward movement. Even then, you are responsible for every round.

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Your not going to like my answer. I apologize. You have been given the best answer already.

Move the location of your pick up to a safer location. All 4 your scenarios fall under a saying we have here here on this site.

Play stupid games in stupid places with stupid people, you will eventually get stupid prizes.

Stupid Games - Doing business in a parking lot in a bad part of town.

Stupid Places - Parking lot in bad part of town.

Stupid people - the criminals and gang bangers.

Stupid prizes. Loss of car at a minimum, loss of freedom and/or life

In no way am I saying you are stupid, or even inferring it. But for a 20 year customer at 1000 pounds a week you are committing an egregious accounting error.

Everyone feel free to zone out. Accounting lecture mode engaged :robot: .

There are 2 main ways to account for delivery of goods sold.

FOB Shipping Point - Indicates that the title and responsibility of goods transfer from the seller to the buyer when the goods are placed on a delivery vehicle.

Free on Board - Including or assuming delivery without charge to the buyer’s named destination.

Stores, which is what you are, and customers do not typically use FOB Shipping Point as that involves them paying additional charges for freight charges.

As an example Hanes sends a shipment of clothing to Walmart, Walmart assumes no liability for those clothes until they hit Walmarts dock at one of their warehouses.

So asking your supplier to meet you in a safer location is the best option. Your 4 other options are non starters due to risk.

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Unfortunately, you missed the thread about seeing friends and family that I left behind in Chicago thus I go there more than I want.

Subsequently, I will no longer carry in Illinois until something like this passes Text - H.R.38 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

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