When I attended Front Sight classes, there were always foreign students who wanted to experience firearms. In many countries, firearms ownership is simply forbidden or significantly restricted. In some of the countries you mentioned, citizens may want firearms to protect themselves from their own governments and would appreciate the opportunity to learn about firearms since they may foresee a day when it is necessary for their own preservation.
Not all foreigners are terrorist wanna bees. When I was in grad school, many of the students were from the Middle East. All had a horrific story to tell about government abuses. âAsk Mohammed about his Qaddafi storyâ was kinda a common experience.
Front Sight conducts back ground checks on all students - at least they did. Vetting should be done in some fashion.
Totally agree with posting banned persons, see at a few.
True not every person is a potential terrorist wanna be, but this is also a technique used to gain knowledge, experience et al. Roll your dice and take your chances!
This raises an interesting question. I have always been of the mind that if I am taking a new shooter to the range on a âpersonalâ level it will be one on one unless itâs a lady and then itâs two on one with the second being her âbest manâ. I mean that in the true sense of dueling. IIRC in the military it was no more than 6 shooters to one instructor, that said you were all military and there is/was a certain âreferentâ level of trust. Today I want me and MY âbest manâ if Iâm taking new shooters off the grid just for eyeballs. That doesnât always work out as Chris Kyle demonstrated. Personally, I donât talk about guns at work and it would take some pretty serious conversation before I would entertain a newbie shooting trip and newbie means ânew to meâ .
What is your motivation for doing this? I would think carefully about teaching anyone you do not know well.
Get to know them better and get a feel for their viewpoint about guns. Also get an idea of their political and social standing and ideas. Remember whatever you pass on can be used against you. Paranoid, your damn right I am.
AND⊠elephant #2âŠ
Thereâs a meme traveling the cyber space that mentions that the following mass shooters were registered democrats: Orlando shooter, Charleston Church shooter, Ft. Hood shooter, parents of both Columbine School shooters, Virginia Tech shooter, Colorado Theater shooter, Connecticut School shooter, and Congresswoman Giffordâs shooter were allegedly all registered Democrats.
SoâŠ
Anyone know if that is really true
If they did get training I wonder how THAT/THOSE instructor(s) feel?
Yes, instructors and anyone who instructs other shooters who might not have all the certificates et al could be held responsible.
Two recourses are
A. Have you own INSTRUCTOR liability insurance that covers YOU not just company you may work for.
B. A positive defense is that you showed good faith, common sense and due diligence to mitigate training a wacko. It wonât get you off the hook by itself, but it helps.
Therefore IMHO if youâre going to train in this field you darn well better exercise significant levels of verifiable trust, valid government IDâs, background checks if possible. Make that part of your fee; be open up front. If they ask âwhyâ, explain it to them. If they bauk, let them be someone elseâs potential career ending, bank account draining liability judgement problem.
My 2 cents!
Okay, my rant is done.
I donât believe the OP is an âInstructorâ (I could be wrong) he was simply talking about giving some co-workers an opportunity to try something new not give them a class. Albeit there is always some training given when doing new things with someone inexperienced. I think his concern for trust is a valid one and I immediately consider the Chris Kyle event as reason for that concern.
On the original topic I think âcomfort levelâ would be the prime factor. I TRUST very few people but I am comfortable with many more, that said, having been an firearms instructor in various disciplines for many years when on the range I TRUST no one and am comfortable with few so my sense of awareness is heightened. I am fortunate to have the luxury of private ranges and the few times I do go to a public range it is only when certain ROâs are on duty that I TRUST and generally stay away from everybody else. I donât think I can count the number of âdumbasseryâ that I have witnessed on ranges over the years even for proficient and âqualifiedâ folk let alone newbies.
Guns by themselves are a safe bet. Add a human and you best be looking out.
You do not need to take them out shooting all at once. You can work with one family at a time. More control situation and you can assess trust level as well as competency. Enjoy.
Given the intense screening that folks entering the U.S. have received in the last twenty years (loud, raucous,sarcastic laughter here with several readers rolling on the floor) I would be hesitant to offer firearms instruction or even discussing firearms with any of them until I had personally identified their status here. By âpersonally identifyingâ, I mean eyeballing a âgreen cardâ seeing the permitting papers allowing them entry into the States which I would compare with a known valid type of document in order to look for telltale signs that it was perhaps issued by a copier at FedEx print & copy shops. Itâs wonderful to introduce them to baseball and pizza and beer, but firearms, I would be very reticent to even bring the topic up. Heck, I rarely discuss it with folks I am pretty sure have been here since the get-go. This is one of the few websites where I even admit I know what a firearm is.
As for taking them to the range and allowing them to handle one of my personal firearms. itâs not no, itâs hell no. Let them rent a gun. That way the monkey is on the range ownerâs back if one of them decides to go jihadist and take out a bunch of folks on the firing line.
Bear in mind, folks bent on evil who come from foreign countries rarely wear a big medallion that says âterroristâ or âJihadistâ around their neck. They keep a low profile and are the best new citizens you have met so far. They donât run around with a large kindhar in their belt or with belts of 7.62x39 over their shoulders. They are peaceable, go to church or temple or mosque whatever other edifice of their religion is where peace and tolerance and love for one another is preached and are the most non-violent people you ever met.
First things first, hats off to you for having to drive to want to introduce firearms to those who donât get to experience the freedoms that we do with firearms. Itâs definitely a great opportunity to grow the firearms community and extend that to other countries. I would probably be in the same mindset if I was in your shoes. Iâd want to do anything I can to get them behind a firearm and to learn how they can be used safely.
When introducing new shooters to firearms, you have to put safety as a top priority (it always should be at the top but there are more risks with new shooters). Before doing this you will need to think about how you will ensure all the safety protocols are followed.
Iâd suggest trying to connect with a certified instructor or trusted firearm owner that you know is safe around firearms in your area to see if they are willing to help out. Having a second set of eyes will be crucial to maintaining safety.
Break it up into two days and make the first day âClassroomâ training. No ammo AT ALL in the area and you just introduce them to handling and function of the firearms. That will give you a decent idea of who can even maintain muzzle control. Those who are unable to prove they can handle a firearm safely are not able to move onto live fire day.
My last point would be to just start with direct co-workers. Bringing your coworkers and their families makes it too big of a group in my opinion. Keep any live fire groups of new shooters to no more than 5 people.
Those spidey senses are there for a reason. It was prudence beckoning you to âpay attention.â Where there is no familiarity, no knowledge, no history, no relationship, no association, thatâs just too many ânoâs.â Where guns are concerned the âpucker factoryâ ought to be working overtime! Trust is a foreign language as it pertains. In this situation it really is âall about the wait and see.â Prove to me that I should even mess with you." Training is one thing, but only to a very limited degree. I donât put real firearms in front of anyone until I have watched them master the plastic ones. I instruct very slowly because I donât want anyone to become careless. Iâve encountered a young fella whom I was certain had left his meds at home, and it was right when weâd scheduled to go to range for a qual. But interestingly enough there was an interruption in the schedule, and we never did re-schedule. I thought I was by myself in this area. You most definitely have every right and is probably most wise to exercise extreme caution and never dismiss or let up, either, because Iâm appreciating your posts.
I donât trust anyone. As several have said, you donât know what others know, and donât know what they are thinking. If I take someone to learn to shoot, I knew them previously, there has been firearm safety work ahead of time, and familiarization with the firearm and snap caps. No going in blind. While we are at the range, I face them when not shooting and the firearm is close, and behind the right shoulder while they are shooting. If I get that funny feeling at any point, we are done. As far as them telling people what I have, is that friends? Feds? Local Leoâs? People talk. I expect that they will tell someone about their experience, and at some point what they shot will come up. However, the firearms I take only include what i use working with them, my carry, and another no one sees. At some point I would love to professionally train, but thatâs not in the cards right now. One day, but not today.
I was at an indoor range a few years ago. In came a group of 4 college kids, obviously foreigners, even more obviously totally ignorant about firearms. They had rented a 289 Smith, a PPK, a 1911 and something else. Alll laughs and giggles, very excited. I observed them pointing muzzles in every direction.I promptly got the hell out of there. Told the owner âyouâd better get somebody in control back there now or somebody is going to get shot. I left then, and never went back. I am all about teaching folks to shoot and education in firearm safety, and have taught a LOT of newbies to shoot-however Turing folks with NO knowledge of firearms loose with a deadly weapon is, to me, criminally negligent.
I have noticed a lot of firearm tourists. Foreign visitors to the states want to try shooting while theyâre here, because theyâll never get the chance back home. I donât mind, as long as they treat it with respect, not like the yahoos you saw at your range.
Maybe weâll get some muscle car tourists when Europe completely bans internal combustion engines.
