# Lawful Use of Force? (You Decide) USCCA **URL:** \ **Category:** Bullet Points\ **Created:** [December 29, 2023, 2:20am UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118 "2023-12-29T02:20:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Karacal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/karacal/32/146742_2.png) [@Karacal](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Karacal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/41 "2023-12-29T23:51:37Z")
> [@Mike164](#): > > I think I’d go with “He wanted in to do something bad in there so I had to stop him…” But…. He was going through a difficult transitional phase of his life. 😀 ---
**Author:** ![Shamrock](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/shamrock/32/24612_2.png) [@Shamrock](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Shamrock)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2023, 11:58pm UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/42 "2023-12-29T23:58:12Z")
> [@Mike164](#): > > Did you miss this part of the law: > > (b) intrusion of any physical object under control of the actor. I did not miss that part and I’m not a lawyer so my opinion is likely not worth much here but if you take the whole law into account it seems to me that throwing heavy objects through a window does not clearly and unconditionally meet the justification for use of deadly force. As a juror on this case I would need a lot more evidence than presented in the video to consider his actions as proof he was trying to enter the premises and/or that he presented an imminent threat of death or severe bodily harm to anyone. That could certainly change at any moment but I don’t think that line was clearly crossed before he was run down. I’m just not willing to risk my life, freedom and ability to provide for my family in defense of property or stuff that can be easily repaired or replaced. I also wouldn’t want to escalate to deadly force against someone who may just be having some sort of temporary psychotic break or drug/alcohol induced temporary stupidity unless I had no other choice. ---
**Author:** ![Shamrock](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/shamrock/32/24612_2.png) [@Shamrock](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Shamrock)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 12:05am UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/43 "2023-12-30T00:05:18Z")
> [@Dave17](#): > > Those cement blocks are use of deadly force. I don’t think that rocks thrown at windows or other objects could be considered deadly force unless you had good reason to believe there was someone directly on the other side of the glass. A punch thrown at a person could be considered deadly force under certain circumstances but a punch thrown at a window or wall is just destruction of property and a good way to cut yourself or break your own bones. ---
**Author:** ![Nathan57](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/nathan57/32/37700_2.png) [@Nathan57](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Nathan57)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 12:13am UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/44 "2023-12-30T00:13:35Z")
If he is throwing those blocks at a person, absolutely, they can kill ---
**Author:** ![BeanCounter](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/beancounter/32/189234_2.png) [@BeanCounter](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/BeanCounter)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 5:50am UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/45 "2023-12-30T05:50:00Z")
If you’re a juror and that’s all you have? ---
**Author:** ![Scott52](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/scott52/32/160942_2.png) [@Scott52](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Scott52)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/46 "2023-12-30T15:14:47Z")
> [@Shamrock](#): > > If this was my neighbors home, window guy would quite probably be getting a face full of pepper gel from the long range dispenser Wouldn’t that, then, from a law enforcement perspective, make you the attacker. You just peer sprayed, Ajleandro, the window maintenance guy? Asking for a friend! ---
**Author:** ![Nathan57](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/nathan57/32/37700_2.png) [@Nathan57](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Nathan57)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/47 "2023-12-30T15:23:33Z")
> [@Scott52](#): > > Wouldn’t that, then, from a law enforcement perspective, make you the attacker. You just peer sprayed, Ajleandro, the window maintenance guy? Asking for a friend! That would seem like use of ordinary/non lethal force in defense, to me. aka being the defender, not the attacker Not a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Shamrock](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/shamrock/32/24612_2.png) [@Shamrock](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Shamrock)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/48 "2023-12-30T15:25:53Z")
If the window maintenance guy doesn’t pause long enough to explain why he is using paving bricks instead of a squeegee on my neighbor’s windows then I’m willing to live with that risk. Also brings up a good point that I would have called LEOs while responding to make sure they knew I was not the original aggressor. ---
**Author:** ![Paul51](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/paul51/32/23346_2.png) [@Paul51](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Paul51)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:08pm UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/49 "2023-12-30T19:08:48Z")
“Breaking glass woke me from my nap. As I was getting dressed I heard a mysterious gunshot, Your Honor. Simply baffling!” ---
**Author:** ![Scott52](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/scott52/32/160942_2.png) [@Scott52](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Scott52)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:26pm UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/50 "2023-12-30T19:26:02Z")
> [@Will\_B](#): > > brick leaves his hand it is no longer “under control of the actor” In that case, once the bullet leaves the barrel, nor I or the gun are in control of said bullet in flight! ---
**Author:** ![BRUCE26](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/bruce26/32/111546_2.png) [@BRUCE26](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/BRUCE26)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/51 "2023-12-30T19:31:07Z")
You just need to hire that shister Brother. 😏 ---
**Author:** ![Will\_B](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/will_b/32/102791_2.png) [@Will\_B](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Will_B)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 7:59pm UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/52 "2023-12-30T19:59:11Z")
Don’t we all wish!!! 😉👍 However we all know some lawyer will claim a “lobbed” brick does not have the directional integrity of a fired bullet, there by does not imply intent. Sorry all, I’m just playing devils advocate with that! I honestly feel a home defender should at least be able to legally “wing” rock chucker guy (be it a firearm or golf cart!) without fear of civil reprisal!!! ---
**Author:** ![Scott52](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/scott52/32/160942_2.png) [@Scott52](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Scott52)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/53 "2023-12-30T20:04:29Z")
You had me at “lobbed”. LMAO 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Bill168](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/bill168/32/44630_2.png) [@Bill168](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Bill168)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 10:58pm UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/54 "2024-01-02T22:58:28Z")
[https://www.google.com/search?q=hone+alone+2+brick+scene&oq=hone+alone+2+brick+scene&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQABgNGIAEMgkIAhAAGA0YgAQyCggDEAAYBRgNGB4yDQgEEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgFEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgGEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgHEAAYhgMYgAQYigXSAQkxMzE0OGowajmoAgCwAgA&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6cedd22f,vid:E3RQVcNUcTA,st:0](https://www.google.com/search?q=hone+alone+2+brick+scene&oq=hone+alone+2+brick+scene&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQABgNGIAEMgkIAhAAGA0YgAQyCggDEAAYBRgNGB4yDQgEEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgFEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgGEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgHEAAYhgMYgAQYigXSAQkxMzE0OGowajmoAgCwAgA&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6cedd22f,vid:E3RQVcNUcTA,st:0) Odd but the bricks didnt seem to do to much damage here!!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Dave17](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/dave17/32/15053_2.png) [@Dave17](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Dave17)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 1:15am UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/55 "2024-01-03T01:15:24Z")
Google, gag me. Here is another link. [![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/uploads/dd_dev/original/3X/f/e/fe6c35d888fd3473ea12cf3600c120e4ba7b9441.jpeg "Home Alone 2: Lost in New York - Brick scene HD") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJKM4w7mFrk) ---
**Author:** ![Mike164](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/mike164/32/52494_2.png) [@Mike164](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Mike164)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2024, 11:47pm UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/56 "2024-01-03T23:47:38Z")
A recent, Similar case in Salt Lake City: > **['She was justified': Judge dismisses murder charge against woman who killed...](https://www.ksl.com/article/50834157/she-was-justified-judge-dismisses-murder-charge-against-woman-who-killed-pro-bull-rider)** > > A Utah judge dismissed murder and other charges Wednesday against a woman who shot and killed her boyfriend, ruling that she was justified because he was breaking into her home. “Defense attorney Sherry Valdez argued that there were people breaking into Bagley’s home in the middle of the night, and when someone is breaking into your home, self-defense is presumed to be reasonable.” “The judge said Bagley is a smaller person, lived in a high-crime area on the ground floor, and it was midnight.” Salt Lake County deputy district attorney Andrew Deesing argued that Bagley had “no reasonable fear.” "Kouris (The Judge) responded that Bagley only needed to know that someone was breaking into her home in order to defend herself. " From this ruling it would appear that here in Salt Lake you don’t actually have to be attacking someone “…when someone is breaking into your home, self-defense is presumed to be reasonable.”. ---
**Author:** ![Dave17](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/dave17/32/15053_2.png) [@Dave17](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Dave17)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2024, 12:08am UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/57 "2024-01-04T00:08:56Z")
> [@Mike164](#): > > when someone is breaking into your home, self-defense is presumed to be reasonable Same in Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![Shamrock](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/shamrock/32/24612_2.png) [@Shamrock](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Shamrock)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2024, 12:33am UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/58 "2024-01-04T00:33:25Z")
The difference in this case being that there is no clear evidence the person is actually trying to break into the home. The windows he is breaking were over his head and would have been very difficult to climb into. The person was observed, likely by the other person who ran him over, breaking other windows with no attempts of entering other buildings. This looks like an unhinged person committing vandalism. Destruction of property does not justify lethal force in the absence of an imminent threat of death or severe bodily harm. I personally would not have used deadly force in this case. I didn’t see anyone in imminent danger when the guy was run over. This fact significantly elevates the legal risk for the cart driver. ---
**Author:** ![Dave17](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/dave17/32/15053_2.png) [@Dave17](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Dave17)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2024, 12:54am UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/59 "2024-01-04T00:54:01Z")
> [@Shamrock](#): > > I didn’t see anyone in imminent danger when the guy was run over. This fact significantly elevates the legal risk for the cart driver. We need a study of the lethality of being hit by a golf cart to determine if that constitutes lethal force. Kind of like getting hit by a nerf dart, maybe? 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Mike164](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/community.usconcealedcarry.com/mike164/32/52494_2.png) [@Mike164](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/u/Mike164)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2024, 2:12am UTC](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118/60 "2024-01-04T02:12:18Z")
> [@Shamrock](#): > > there is no clear evidence the person is actually trying to break into the home. Like throwing bricks, not a single brick but BrickS, through the windows? [Previous page](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118.md?page=2) [Next page](https://community.usconcealedcarry.com/t/lawful-use-of-force-you-decide-uscca/98118.md?page=4)