Do Lasers Constitute Deadly Force....?

What are your thoughts?

@MikeBKY have you thought much about this one yet???

https://gabesuarez.com/lasers-are-they-a-deadly-force-event

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At a close range this laser can burn through your skin. Can probably hit a vital organ and burn it. Yes I would say it does constitute deadly physical force.

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If someone is intentionally trying to harm you with one of these, I don’t see why it couldn’t be. It’s hard to defend yourself if you’re blind. If the information in the link is correct, the power of the laser is well outside of the regulated limit, which makes it a weapon. Knowing the effects of a laser of this power, I would consider it a lethal weapon. If someone uses this on you, I don’t think they intend to walk away after they are done with it.

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I think that would come under the “great bodily harm” portion of self defense. :angry:

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I have not really thought about it much, but, I have stated in the past that I consider any attempt to incapacitate me as a potential deadly force encounter. I spoke specifically of pepper spray and tasers as I have experience with using and, as part of training, been on the receiving end as well and speak directly to their ability to significantly diminish my capacity to protect myself and retain whatever weapons are on my person.
Knowing that lasers are often attached to weapons and can otherwise cause blindness, Based on this, There is an absolute possibility that this could become a deadly force encounter.

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I was wondering this as well, especially, since there were so many report of it being done to LEO’s in Portland, Oregon.

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Well, I’m not a lawyer. But blindness is a severe disability under all types of disability law and regulation. Anything that could reasonably result in permanent, severe disability and is being attempted right now is an imminent threat of great bodily harm.

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I continue to wonder, when Antifa point laser at LEOs, why not return the favor?

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Yes, lets keep in mind that rioters have used lasers to permanently blind (according to latest reports) police officers.

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Background on me. Laser Engineer.

My thoughts:

Laser damage to eyes depends on the laser power and wavelength. Laser Pointers of 3mw-5mw are not harmful, typically. These are the classroom type.
Lasers of higher power of 1-2 watts of focused power are bad news. Buy them direct from China, not legal in USA.
Wicked Lasers is one source to see what is around.
You can’t really tell the power of the laser normally just by looking at the beam, or having it in your eyes. Low power you have temporary blindness. Higher power you will have permanent eye damage. Not totally blind. Just dark holes in your vision. May take time to show up.
Some Lasers have Infrared light you can’t see and eye damage is going on because you can’t see it until it is to late!

Discussion time:

So when you do you double tap someone aiming a laser at you? Judgment call. Act fast if you need too. Your vision may get real bad real quick and now you may tap the wrong person. Can you also prove who blew your eyes out? The whole situation can suck real fast.
You tap the perp and they drop the laser going down. Somebody in the group picks it up and hides it. Hope somebody has a video of the laser pointer on you. LEO will be really wanting to know why you Double Tapped somebody in a crowd for no reason!
*The lasers typically is not considered deadly. Just life changing maybe.
FYI: Yes, I have seen deadly lasers that will turn you into mist in a few seconds.

What is USCCA take on defending this?

Let us hear from the Legal Guys!

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@Tom61 Welcome to the board!!! Glad to have you and your knowledge here!!!

I worked in eyeballs for about 10 years after retiring primarily in Retina. Medically we use lasers to stop the spread of harmful blood vessel growth due to Hypertensive, Diabetic & Age Related Macular Degeneration as well as a bunch of other stuff like welding a retina back together again due to a tear or detachment. The problem comes in where the laser impacts the “Fovea Centralis” which it the point of your fine and color vision where the lens of your eye is focused on the back of your eyeball. If you damage that you will have varying effects from a loss of color vision to a “Hole” in the center of your vision, literally it is a black spot in the middle of what you see and depending on how big it is will depend on how much you can use your peripheral vision. Ask anyone with Macular Degeneration how much fun it is to turn your head to the side to try and read something. I would consider a laser eye attack to qualify under “great bodily harm”.

Cheers,

Craig6

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Interesting post, @Tom61. Welcome to the community.

How about an eye for an eye (pardon the pun)?

Someone shines their laser on cops, cops shines theirs back.

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Some units had these lightsabre looking lasers (dazzler) issued for EOF. This jackwagon from some transportation unit decided it would be a great idea to flash our truck and got myself and my gunner in the eyes. Even for a brief exposure, it sure felt like I was punched right in the eye.

I would also consider it to qualify under great bodily harm…life, limb, and eyesight.

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Because it would be illegal…

Which begs the question… why are Antifa and BLM terrorists getting away with it.

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I know that pain. Been “Dazzled” once or twice fortunately it was a glancing blow but yes there are things out there that will take you down quickly.

Cheers,

Craig6

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Equal force is a good way to look at the situation, @Ferdinand1. Someone shines a laser in your eye and you return with equal force, you haven’t escalated the force.

Does a laser present imminent, unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm? The answer you’re all expecting is coming… It depends.

Do you know the strength of the laser? Will it permanently blind you? Will it incapacitate you to the point that you cannot further defend yourself?

There are a lot of what ifs in every self-defense situation. Know your laws, train, and be able to articulate why you did what you did. Unfortunately there is no one size fits all answer when it comes to the legal aspect of a self-defense situation.

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@Dawn,

Equal force, I agree, when it comes to the topic of lasers, lest my original reply to the OP be misinterpreted where I said, “return the favor.”

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I guess the equal force and the questions posed by @Dawn have been vetted by cases involving guns. Prime examples are you have all occasionally heard in the news about how a cop (seems to be typical in how the media plays it) shot some kid and the officer never should have shot him cause he had an airsoft gun (orange tip removed) and thus the cop should have used some less than leathal option against an airsoft-wielding perp. Seems apples to oranges, but the question is the same. What is the reasonable assumption, and how can you justify the reasonable assumption you just made? Is it some kid who found his dad’s laser pointer in his briefcase? Probably be a stretch. Is it some antifa full grown kid dressed in an identifying hoodie and masked? You might have a better shot at justification due to examples in the news of people of that organization purposely using powerful lasers in an attempt to blind a cop. So, based on the situation, what is a reasonable assumption?

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All that needs for legal self defense is possible great bodily harm. Permanently blinding someone definitely meets that requirement. See a laser, you have a protected right to defend yourself, up to and including lethal force. Quite a scary scenario, and I feel very bad for those federal agents that these despicable cretins harmed. Worse, yet, they will unlikely face any punishment for what they have done.

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Because the powers in charge want them to do it. Occam’s Razor.

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