Aaron, could not disagree with you more, I work in sector that has been declared essential, and has been mandated by regulatory bodies outside of the public domain to wear PPE and it has done nothing to reduce the spread of COVID, and as a chemist I can also say that the science that masks would greatly impact the spread is not there. I can also say that I’m coming off of a bout with COVID, which was about like the flu, and I got it while again maintaining all the requirements that my industry requires.
It greatly irritates me that liberals have been using the virus as political tool whenever they need it like elections, and etc., but they can gather in the streets in mobs for protests and celebrations, and they can hold there special get togethers, however everyday law abiding conservatives are forbidden from gathering for Thanksgiving and Church or etc.
I believe that Democrats have shown that they will abuse the rights of we the people for political reason and revenge, and we the people should not just give up or freedoms and rights because they say so, rights once given up are hard to get back.
For those who are anti-gun, I point to the gun control laws and ask if they would be accepted if it was a permit to travel across town, and perhaps the permit is a ‘May Issue’ and not a "Shall Issue’, and you need a compelling reason. Would people accept that as easily as they seem to accept permits for Owning or carrying of firearms.
For this, I reversed it. If we do not like limits on our rights, would we accept mandates on national no carry for the safety of others.
And Governor Newsom in California is mandating a mask requirement for EVERYWHERE outside of your home… including driving, at the beach, everywhere.
I know Covid, like the flu is something that is or can be serious, and do not want either of them, but I look to freedom and liberty… and no matter how much tyrannical power we give government, there is no way to make everyone safe from everything at all times.
Everybody will have an opinion, and we should consider the various viewpoints, and make a choice. In this, I always try to err on the side of Freedom.
I like and agree with Aaron on many issues, I hope he does not take offense.
You should take a look at what Cuomo in NY is trying to do. Wants to limit family gatherings in your own home to 10 or less. This is not just rhetoric as he did zn exec order for it. Many of the Sheriff’s in the State said theywould not enforce it. Partly because they don’thave the man power and partly because it violates long standing rules for enteringprivate residences.
There is also a line floating around saying he has made it mandatory to wear a mask everywhere…including your own home. I have not been able to verify that one.
There is also a proposed law in the NY Senate that is trying to make it mandatory for you to sign over all your browser history and social media accounts in order to apply for a firearm. The bill says it will be left to the discreation of the investigator what to do if he finds anything. It never clarifies what anything means.
So like many others have said…becareful how much of your rights you are willing to give up or you may wake up one day witn none left.
Limits in a house would be inherently difficult to enforce. First, you have the sheer number of homes to inspect. Second is that pesky 4th Amendment that protects our homes against unreasonable search and seizure. In other words, the police can come to your house, but they can’t invite themselves inside to do a head count. Finally, there’s an open question of whether or not the orders are even legal.
In the highly unlikely event that the police come to your house, be respectful. They don’t want to be there, either. But don’t let them in without a warrant.
Kevin, I’ve been in health care my entire career and I can tell you–COVID Is not the flu. The mortality rate is significantly higher than the flu (with the exception of 1918-19), and it’s a lot more politicized than the flu ever was.
please note the stats are out of order on the graph. The people I know in the hospitals who see this can tell you it’s worse than the flu. We still don’t know all the long term effects–which you don’t see with the flu. And flu deaths are not reported accurately by the CDC to begin with–they provide estimates, not firm numbers–considering they include assumptions about unreported cases–grossly overstating the mortality from flu. And the NYC mortality was early on before social distancing/masks were convential, weren’t they? Wisconsin, a huge bastion of no masks, just surpassed Ohio in cases (twice the population, similar land mass).
And while I think the government needs to stay out of most things with the exception of national defense and infrastructure, if they’re going to use taxpayer dollars to care for people, I think its reasonable that those people could /should get their ‘free stuff’ with stipulations place on them; e.g., I also think that welfare recipients should only get a check after they pass a drug test.
I am able to find a great deal of evidence that the research and the science does support masks. I’'m happy to share the references with you (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8--references at the end). Masks protect others from your droplets. Combine them with social distancing and proper hygiene–it just makes sense.
I don’t understand why smart people are so resistant what I would consider common sense precautions. Why wouldn’t we wear a mask while in public establishments or in close proximity to others if there is a pandemic going on?
I agree with keeping businesses open and disagree with this shelter in place stuff. But it also irks me that people go out, get the virus and pass it through ignorance and/or apathy (because they’re not worried about it–they’re young/healthy). Given the time between symptoms and testing positive, that’s a lot of people they can infect while they’re still asymptomatic.
Here’s my question, at what point IS it ok to curtail freedoms to protect the public? What mortality rate is unacceptable for you?
I have yet to see one credible health care professional or epidemiologist say that wearing a mask isn’t going to help. Considering you can’t prove me wrong, I can confidently say that if we would have all worn a mask in public consistently when this started, it would be gone by now.
And what’s crazy to think about is this–if I"m right, the left would have lost one of the biggest bullets in their gun, and I don’t think we’d be facing a Biden/Kamala debacle.
Aaron, see here is the rub and it’s significant, you say I can’t prove you wrong, but I can, I’ve worn a mask for weeks and got COVID, so you are wrong.
Further the Dems have been putting together false results and reports on COVID for months to suit their fraudulent purposes so no data on either side is proof of anything finally and this is big, my education and my job have me involved a great deal with disinfection and filtration and I can tell you the filtration science, pore size, particle size, residence time, and etc do not support standard faces mask being a great barrier to COVID. But wear your mask if it comforts you thats cool, and as I’ve said I wear masks where required.
I could use analogies of what the left has said about gun owners and gun violence, and even utilize some of their corrupt data, and make virtually the same case for removing guns from citizens, but I will not even go there.
I would agree, If they take government handouts, are dependent on government, they should meet certain requirements.
There was a time in this nation, when any assistance to those how needed help was primarily local, churches, and local organizations with some residents in charge of monitoring the situations… and there was a ‘poor house’, where people were fed and clothed… not fancy or luxurious but sufficient, and if they were able bodied… they had to work for it.
This is NOT an endorsement of governmental control over people who receive medicare… Medicaid might be open to some controls… but far too many leftists want to provide ‘free stuff’ all the time.
As far as the numbers on Covid? We have hospitals that are almost shutting down due to lack of patients, because of the fear of Covid and they needed to keep beds available. The mortality rate is much lower than the early days of the virus… and we have a 99.5% + survivability rate.
Sorry, that is similar enough to the flu to count as a comparison… and your own chart shows the Asian FLU… .yes a flu, was worse than Covid… but you are also not taking into account the politics, such as Cuomo, Murphy and Wolf that caused far more deaths than there should have been.
And you put the 2009 at the bottom, and that is only because it did not kill as many… however, it was less contagious, and if it was the same as Covid it would have been far worse… but it did kill children in larger numbers, the H1N1-09 was far more deadly to children.
On this, I have seen the numbers, I have seen the survivability, and I have seen the CDC numbers… most of the listed deaths were from underlying existing conditions, and may have been the cause of death regardless of Covid.
Fear of something should not allow for tyranny.
And here is a problem. Several months ago, an individual tried to pint to South Dakota, which did not shut down and tried to say they had massive cases… and at that time they did, about 1,200… and they praised Wyoming for their shut down… as they only had around 550 cases… BUT… BUT… and here is the issue.
South Dakota had about 12 deaths… and Wyoming had 15 at that time.
Cases mean little. 99.5% plus… survivability rate… most people recover and some barely have any symptoms. So, when you put in Wisconsin surpassed Ohio in CASES… .it distorts and is less valid.
So, as far as the numbers, and I have said this before… Covid is similar to the flu… we have had flu deaths upwards of 60K to over 100K, …
I have yet to see a heart attack victim… or a stroke victim be listed as a flu death, yet there has been several included in the Covid lists.
As far as masks, there is a Danish report, that is being hidden… why? What did that report find out about masks.
So, your plan is to institute strict government control and what… capital punishment if an individual violates some draconian rules?
Never! You never curtail freedom, liberty or individual rights.
Jackson, you’re an n of 1. We can’t use that small a sample size–and masks are only parts–you need flawless handwashing and no touching the face, etc… My assertion was an epidemiological one–that if everyone wears a mask and follows social distancing/hygiene, we have a great chance to eradicate this as a society. And while the left seems to want to blow this up into the zombie apocalypse, the right wants to discount it and fight it at every turn. Neither option is the right approach.
Sure you do. You have to wear a seat belt. You can’t text/drink and drive. You can’t vote until your 18 . You can’t own a pistol until you’re 21. Are those freedoms that are curtailed?
Kevin, the graph is out of order–Covid has surpassed all other flus with the exception of 1918 Spanish. And none of the medical professionals or epidemiologists will agree with your opinion–their facts do not back that up. THis is not the flu, it is far worse than the flu, and because ‘most people will survive it’ isn’t a good reason to take steps as a society to protect those who probably won’t.
Surviving COVID is one part of this, but so is limiting the avoidable health care spend and burden to an already overtaxed system. Cases don’t mean little from a public health perspective. The downstream impact on resource utilization, triage, etc., is enormous, not just on health care, but on lost wages, productivity, insurance costs., etc.
Flu reporting is estimates, not actual case rates. Covid has had it share of issues with this anecdotally, but be reasonable–you think they’re attributing so many heart attacks and strokes to the numbers that’s it’s actually changing the reality of what we’re seeing? That’s a stretch, to be polite. Conversely, there is a growing body of evidence (studies underway at OSU right now for instance) on the long term damage being seen to the myocardium in young patients with COVID. Something we DON’T see wifh the flu. So great, the young people get ‘better’, only to end up at risk for SCA due to scarring on their heart.
I don’t think masks /social distancing are draconian when you’re in public and proximity to others. They’re reasonable.
We can discuss all day. At the end of that, the point remains, is freedom something that we have as a right? Or is there responsibility associated with it?
I love you guys, and I’m thankful for the respect and courtesy in your replies–I hope I"ve shown the same!
Do you guys think Trump would have lost if he had approached the pandemic differently? I think there’s a chance he might have pulled this off.
I have a quick question, does the chart provided above take into account the CDC acknowledgement that 94% of the ‘victims’ of covid had other comorbidities?
What about the statistics for 'other’s kinds of deaths that are now listed under covid if their was any positive covid test at all (even if they were already terminal with something else)? How do they factor into the totals?
Where do we factor for 85 year old nursing home captives that can’t visit with their family, but share a facility with infected persons, at select state ‘leaderships’ direction.
Greg, I don’t know that we can. It’s the same with any death–if you get killed in a car accident with terminal cancer, it’s still considered a motor vehicle death.
I’d also consider that a tangent to the issue at hand. I want to talk about a forest and many people want to focus on a tree.
Wave the flag of freedom as the costs of this continue to rise (lives, health care resources, productivity, lost wages).
Let’s see where this poor fiscal responsibility and lack of focus on public health gets us. More draconian restrictions on our rigths is my bet.
NAA, I have no problem wearing a mask when called to and keeping my fingers out of my nose. But we all know that no one faction is above manipulating the ‘facts’ for their purposes and it’s getting harder and harder to tell fact from fiction. And when the CDC admits it was only 6% that had covid alone it begs one to be discerning.
There is no right to drive.
There is no right to text, or to text and drive. Until you are 18, you are considered a minor, and as such fall under your parents, and do not have full rights or faculties.
CDC has even stated the actual deaths from Covid are under 10K. Underlying conditions do make an individual more at risk, but just like the flu, those underlying conditions are the cause, and may be exacerbated by the flu or Covid.
Not sure what you mean out of order. Those numbers are showing it exactly in order based on percentage of population.
CDC has presented data that Covid has a 99.5% + survival rate, and you and I will not agree…
If you fear the virus, and you have underlying conditions that make you at risk, by all means, take precautions. Those who are not at risk, those who are less fearful, can live their lives. If you want to wear a mask, do so. If others want to eat at a restaurant and NOT have to move the mask for each bite, your mask and distance from their table will protect you.
It is interesting, we have had the flu around for decades… and they can not provide specific pin point numbers, but it is claimed they can do so with Covid… perhaps. However, I still have never heard of heart attacks or strokes being declared flu deaths, but they are listed as Covid deaths. If the reporting is not accurate, or is inflated for any reason, it creates a basis for not trusting the numbers. And when those numbers show a far lower mortality rate, and a high survivability rate, it does not justify government abuse of power.
As for scarring? Yes, you see it with the flu. Many flu cases develop pneumonia and that does scar the lung tissues. Covid and the various flus may have some different effects, but still fall into the same category and similar enough for all intents and purposes.
Do you think mask mandates requiring masks at the beach are reasonable? Do you think mask mandates in your own home are reasonable? Those are what California and Pennsylvania are doing.
As I said, if you fear the virus or are at risk, wear a mask, and if the restaurant you were preparing to eat at has a large crowd and few masks, go elsewhere. Why should others be forced to act, when those fearful or at risk can take their own precautions.
As I said before, if needed, and required, I do wear a mask.
Here is where I say something that makes several in this community have aneurysms and blood shooting from their eyes. Here we go. Our Right to carry ENDS at the door of a business. Those businesses that declare themselves no gun, have that right, and if we carry inside, we may not be violating a law, but we are violating their rights… so, a business that says no guns, I… and we all, if we are responsible armed Americans, should disarm and secure our firearm in our vehicle if we choose to enter… that goes for businesses that require masks, if they require a mask I wear one, it is their business. Outside, no. On the public sidewalk, no… driving my car… no. In a warehouse that is 20,000 sf… and only has a few people… not unless they require it.
Those who do not wear masks do not cause you to be sick… if you wear your mask, and take precautions. If someone approaches you, tell them to stay back.
Our rights are not to be limited or restricted by any action of government… and if we allow it, recovering that freedom or right will be extremely difficult if ever.
I disagree with you … not on the entire issue, as I said, when required, I do wear a mask, but refuse to accept government abuse, or the fear of Covid… I do not want the flu or Covid, but will not let it control my life… but you are always respectful and hope I am to you also… I know I get heated at times… but I agree with you on many issues… this one, while we agree to a point… we will always disagree on some details.
First, Trump has not lost yet… that is yet to be determined, and we must wait until the votes are certified and all legal issues go through the process… but I think the media made a big influence and lied much.
Trump shut down travel from China… when Fauci said there was nothing to worry about… and Biden called Trump a xenophobe… and Pelosi was calling all people to come to Chinatown… then Biden said Trump did not stop the travel soon enough and Fauci changed his story… but the media always put Trump in a negative light.
I think, with an honest media, telling the people the facts, objectively, and let the people decide, there would perhaps be far less violence and far less anger over the election.
I heard two unsettling points today about the novel vaccine(s). They are touted as better than 90% effective at preventing COVID-19 illness. Which means symptoms. Not test positivity, symptoms. Knowing 80% of infected people do not develop symptoms without the vaccine - how good the vaccines are really? Do they actually stop spread of the virus, or just create a larger population of asymptomatic spreaders and false sense of security?
The 2nd point was that Covid causes long-term effects, myocardium and lung scarring, etc, even with mild or asymptomatic illness . It is unclear at this time if these vaccines are free from such side effects.
Well, we are back in lockdown. Luckily, pharmacies are essential. Of course, so are grocery stores, and our illustrious governor is shutting those down now.
I think she is fighting for a Biden appointment. I also find it interesting that the day after Michelle Lujan Grisham dictated a two week lockdown, Gretchen Whitmer imposed a three week lockdown. I suspect she is watching our evil governor and topping whatever she does.