Civil War, is it inevitable or avoidable?

I actually always assumed that if there was a second civil war, it would occur when Leftists were in control of the government. I thought they’d move to take one too many of our rights away, and that the Right would feel forced into rising up.

I thought that the Leftists would not dare to spark a war unless they had Constitutional control over the military. It never occurred to me that they might try to spark a conflict while the Right was in control of the military, but that does seem to be what Antifa and their other fascist ilk seem to be trying. I am somewhat astounded.

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This whole “If Trump is impeached, we’re going to form a militia” thing is one of the biggest reasons my husband and I, both democrats, were thinking about gun ownership. Gun ownership was just followed through due to someone coming into my life who is the first person to have ever made me feel in danger (not due to politics). But yeah, reading some things here reinforced my original feelings as to why I need a gun. Am I, or my children, going to be targets for this “militia” because we’re known Democrats? Are we to be deemed enemies and treated as such, just because we have different beliefs? Trump recently retweeted this impeachment/militia rhetoric, and that is unnerving.

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@LolaKinks No you’re not going to be targeted, that was just Trump-being-Trump you should know that by now. He says things and a few days, a week later he has a completely different 180° Turn about. This community and gun owners in General are law abiding, family people, who welcomes new people and we’re all happy you are here. Yes from time to time there are disagreements but it only lasts a minute. I can assure you everyone here and as I said gun owners in general. Are law abiding people and have zero interest in hurting people. As you are more used to the community you will find everyone is friendly and there are some Democrat leaning people on here. All are welcome here. I’m sure if she hasn’t already both @Zee and @Dawn will be extending a warm welcome to you. As well as everyone else.
Sincerely,
Robert Murphy

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Welcome!

One thing I expected when I voted for Trump was a pretty constant stream of bombast. After listening to him for years on “The Apprentice “ (I didn’t watch, but his comments were hard to avoid) and his general comments to the press, I figured we would hear and see what he has been saying and tweeting.

I haven’t seen a link between impeachment and militia, but more a link between gun confiscation and owners’ reactions.

We’re in different places, politically, but I would imagine that we’re not so different in other ways.

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Hi @LolaKinks, welcome to the group :slight_smile:

Apologizing in advance if this is a little long :wink: I think there are a lot of different points to explore but let me start with you are here in the company of others who believe in the right to defend themselves, their loved ones, and their homes… everyone on here starts with that at the heart of what they do.

A lot of people got to that place because something terrible had happened to them, or to someone they know or love. Some because they fear that a terrible thing could happen, and they want to be prepared just in case. Others because they know terrible things can and do happen in the world and they are, by nature, protectors and defenders. Some because they enjoy firearms as a sport or a lifestyle and self defense is a natural extension of that.

Regardless of how people arrived here, we share a common belief in our unalienable rights and the right to bear arms as a part of it, and you are absolutely welcome here.

Politics often stir people to rash words or over-broad generalizations - we do try hard to discourage that here… civility, respect, and recognition that people can start with the same core beliefs about personal sovereignty and yet hold different opinions on lots of topics is a core tenet of how this forum works.

I hope you’ll share your viewpoint and your opinions here, and that you’ll find support, education, and friendship here with folks who believe in the same right to self-protection that you do, and you might not find supported in some of your other associations.

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I think your fear is the identical twin to what a lot of republicans and conservatives feel… Am I, or my children, going to be targets for the liberal government officials because we are known conservatives? Are we deemed enemies and treated as such, just because we have guns?

We see a lot of legislation coming to the front in places like Virginia where conservatives, and gun owners in particular, are being targeted for legal restrictions, confiscation of property, or being turned into criminals by enactment of laws that criminalize previously legal behavior and property.

We - both liberals and conservatives - are responding to fear in the same way, and for not so very different reasons. Fear of oppression or prosecution, fear of attack by authority or by our neighbors. Fear that someone will come after us to take away what is rightfully ours, up to and including our lives.

The current political climate is one of an increasingly wide gap, with both major parties and the media throwing fuel on the fire of xenophobia, anxiety and alienation between groups. Its a very dangerous game they’re playing, and I’m afraid its we-the-people who will pay.

That said, we don’t have to join in. While my personal beliefs are strongly libertarian, I have friends who are in both the liberal and conservative camps - and I seek to make the person-to-person connections that make the party on people’s voter registration a far less important factor.

To address your concerns about militias - I don’t think you have a reason to fear being targeted by militias - in general militias are not a response to democrats per se, but to governmental restriction and oppression of personal sovereignty. As such, it’s not about going door-to-door hunting down liberals, but rather about preventing government or military overreach in things like door-to-door confiscation of firearms.

Mobs of angry people do stupid things - look at the LA riots where angry people burned down their own neighborhoods and hurt their own neighbors to protest how they were being treated. That excess of rage is a thing humans are capable of, and if there is a flash-over, rage can be indiscriminate. That is a legitimate reason to be armed and to be trained. But look at what the “militia” did in that event - they stood with the homeowners and shop owners in Korea Town and protected them and theirs. Those people, who were not themselves Korean, put their lives and their freedom on the line to protect others.

I believe the idea of being targeted by a militia group because you are a democrat is a useful tool in the hands of those who would see us divided beyond repair.

I also believe that being prepared to protect oneself and one’s family and home is a right thing to do regardless of where you fall on the political scale.

Anyway, enough from me. Always happy to have a conversation with you. :slight_smile:

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As a very conservative Republican, I am glad that you have decided to arm yourselves. It would be much, much better if all of us would stop threatening each other, and stop trying to rule each other.

Frankly, if Trump is removed from office (which I doubt), I expect violence, primarily aimed at political targets. Maybe the next time Antifa stages a riot people start shooting at them.

Unfortunately, if Trump is reelected, I also expect violence, probably in the form of more aggression from Antifa and groups like them. I consider it to be only a matter of time before they go after the wrong people, and shooting starts.

Even more unfortunately, if Trump is reelected, I expect an assassination attempt. This is my nightmare scenario. If Trump is seriously wounded or killed, taking certain people at their word, I’d expect celebrations, and I believe at least some of those celebrations would be attacked. I hate thinking this way, but I do.

I seriously hope none of this happens. I can imagine only a few things I would hate worse than Americans fighting ourselves again. The last thing we need is a bunch of vengence killings all over the place.

Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many will grow cold

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Thank you all for being so welcoming, despite my likely not-common-around-these-parts political leanings.

I do still worry about such things because Trump tweets things like this…

…and in the violence he seems to be encouraging his supporters to take. Telling a crowd that he’d pay legal fees if his security knocked the crap out of protesters, and at another rally said “Get him out, try not to hurt him. If you do, I’ll defend you in court, don’t worry about it.” And at another rally “In the good old days this doesn’t happen because they used to treat them very, very rough. And when they protested once, they would not do it again so easily. But today they walk in and they put their hand up and they put the wrong finger in the air at everybody. And they get away with murder, because we’ve become weak.” After all these things were said, the crowd goes wild.

I feel that words matter. Words especially matter as president. Retweeting Jeffress’ stuff about civil wars, other people talking about how if impeachment happens they’d be willing to participate in a civil war, and the violent talk about what to do with protesters, just puts my husband and I at unease. I don’t think it will happen, but I am concerned. As for the left, I don’t see any leader promoting violence. We can be extreme in other ways, surely, but yikes on bikes, Trump really needs to stop being this way. He makes me, and any Democrat the enemy. He literally is saying as much, almost daily via Twitter (examples could be screen shot, but I’m lazy, and they’re easy to find on your own if interested). I am not an enemy, and the president is supposed to be for all of the people, not just the ones who support him. Adding all this up, it just seems like if this civil war poop were really to go down, I’d be wise to be able to defend myself and my family.

Either way, I’m now a gun owner a lot sooner than anticipated due to a super unnerving, non-political situation I’ve been recently put in, I’ve learned a few things that has changed my thoughts on gun laws. While I was thankful I was able to walk out with a gun that same day (previously supported a waiting period), I’m frustrated that I have to wait for my CC permit to be approved (didn’t even know that was a thing, but probably would have supported it). I have a gun, but cannot use it for the purposes I bought it for, unless I do so illegally. On the flip side, should we have red flag laws in my state, the matter could be taken care of on that end of things, and ultimately be safer for everyone and not just me and those around me when I can finally carry. Still, it’s amazing how being put in a position to actually experience a thing can change opinions, huh? :wink:

Anyhow, I didn’t start this intending on going on a semi-rant. I hope I at least did so respectfully. I’ve been trying to learn as much as I can about defending myself with a weapon, laws, how to carry and so much more, but in doing so, I run into a lot of anti-liberal stuff (not here though… yet?), which I know that in turn, if you all were to reading up on, I don’t know, a forum on saving the earth, there’s be anti-conservative stuff on there… anyway, I’m not here to debate anything really. I would like to say that normally, I would have just scrolled on past this topic. It’s not really what I’m here for, though I will read more on the pro-gun arguments that I was against in the past, and be open to the topic. However, the most I think will happen is that I’ll just end up being a pro-gun liberal, lol.

Thanks for the respectful and kind replies!

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That’s part of the divide right there. Now that you find yourself in such a vulnerable position, you are finding out who the laws restrict… not the aggressor who threatens you, but you and your ability to legally defend what is rightfully yours… your life.

It is that understanding that is missing in many of the anti-gun folks, and in combination with mischaracterization of those who have firearms, it creates a firestorm of fear. It is one side of how the “divide” in “divide and conquer” is made.

Red flag laws would pick up some people who should be picked up. The problem with them is that they are ideal for abuse, and that’s what’s on the other side of the “divide”.

When a court adjudicates someone as a danger, a high level of rigor should be applied to restricting their rights, and that may take time. Red flag laws, as usual written, are set up for speed and sacrifice the protection of individual rights. Confiscate the guns and due process is handled later. Instead of innocent until proven guilty, the person is punished first, and then, later, has to prove themselves innocent.

We’ve already seen people killed by officers because someone made an unfounded red flag report and they resisted when police showed up to take their firearms without notice. It’s only a matter of time before we see this: An aggressor threatens his intended victim, so the victim gets a gun to protect themselves. The aggressor red flags the victim and the police remove the victim’s guns. Court hearings can be held off for several weeks under some of these laws, so now the aggressor can attack and kill the intended victim at their leisure, knowing the courts and police have conveniently disarmed them.

I hope you are able to get your permit issue resolved quickly - its horrible to be threatened and feel vulnerable. Beyond that, its unconscionable when the law acts to prevent you, who has done nothing wrong, from defending yourself or forces you to choose between protecting your own life and doing something illegal.

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That’s why most of us are here :blush:

We try not to generalize that liberal=anti-gun … often people hold both beliefs, but many of us on here know pro-2A gun-owning folks with otherwise liberal views. Many of them arrived the same way you have… through a personal experience.

There’s that divide and conquer at work again…

Couldn’t ask for more than that. You might even make a friend or two on here :wink:

^^^ that’s perfect, as far as I’m concerned.

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I was pretty uneasy last night going to sleep about my second post here. I regret even going into politics even further than I did originally here. My heart raced coming to read the replies and I’m pleasantly surprised by how kind you all are being. Thank you very much for that, and I will try harder at being less political regardless.

Greg1, that does somewhat read badly. I wonder what he was replying to though because I feel there might be a need for more context.

Zee, my state is supposed to give or deny my permit within 3 weeks and I sent in the paperwork almost a week ago. I hope they’re not bogged down and it comes sooner. :slight_smile:

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I’m actually glad you did post it. Because pro-gun liberals are a bit rare, and those that are willing to speak about it are even rarer, we don’t get to put a “face” to the conversation very often. It is extremely useful to do so… people aren’t political parties and if we mean to be effective in changing the world we need to remember that in every interaction.

Most of my communities run towards conservative, but a few (health coaching, bellydancing) are generally very far liberal… I’m one of very few voices who speak any conservative opinions in those arenas. Folks there can be brutal about my views, some even after years of knowing me. It sucks.

We’re much better behaved here.

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If you have read some of my posts I look like a conservative leaning Republican. I am not a member of any party and I vote for who thinks along as many of the same lines as I do. There are some things I will not compromise on and some I will.

All that being said I have some very left liberal Democrat friends who yell at me if I dont invite them along to go to the range. They enjoy owning guns and shooting but their focus in politics is not the same as mine. That does NOT mean we cant still be friends and still debate different subjects.

If you are here and respectful to others (as most of us here try to be) then we have a basis for being friends that can agree to disagree on some subjects and still enjoy the things we do have in common.

I hope that all made sense.

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@LolaKinks Here is an article link with more background.

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@Greg1, while I see that more of a poor retort more than anything else, I’ll admit that it’s an amazingly stupid retort by Swalwell. Nukes? Like, the got some fancy nukes that only targets the gun owners who start a war? He could have gone with at least tanks or fighter jets or something somewhat logical at least, lol.

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People have already been targeted because of Trumps rhetoric. Funny how Trump gets a pass when it comes to Trump being Trump when the same people would never given Clinton or Obama a pass on anything. The hypocrisy is deafening.

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I guess I see it as more than a poor retort. Recently a 12 year old Kansas school girl was arrested for making a “finger gun” gesture at some classmates. Even though her actions were done as part of a teacher lead class discussion she is facing Felony charges. So a member of Congress running for POTUS making a comment about attacking American citizens on American soil with nuclear weapons getting a pass really seems like a double standard. Where is the “Zero Tolerance”, why wasn’t Swalwell “Red Flagged”?

From what I have read in your posts, you are new to firearm ownership. It is unfortunate that you have had to start your experience with guns because you are concerned about your safety… it is a lot more fun if you start out with a Daisy Cub shooting pop cans under the watchful supervision of your Dad and see the enjoyable side of them while growing up. But here you are in a community that really doesn’t care about each others political affiliations as much as we do about being able to continue to have access to firearms that is protected by the 2nd amendment. Here you are a gun owner, if an unconstitutional law is passed it will affect liberal and conservative gun owners equally.

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I said that to Lola because I was trying to make her feel welcome here. My point was that our President says things from a negotiation perspective and backs away so as to take a little, give a little as a negotiation tactic. I used this because that is exactly what he does every time.
This platform is apolitical and I am not here to talk politics with you or anybody else. There are hundreds if not thousands of political forums to talk and or vent for that and this is not the place for politics as you can see by some talking about politicians and being stopped. And I’m to tired of all the political talk its a snooze to be truthful.

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