What if you know the apprehension to be illegal? Like the case in NYC and now Floyd if you see the cop killing someone I would hope you could intervene and a jury see you are innocent.
As we’ve discussed on some other threads, your best weapon is your camera.
I’m being pragmatic. Let’s say you find a group of people who appear to be acting out of accordance with the law. That doesn’t give you the right to shoot them.
Level up: it’s a group of police officers endangering the life of a person. First, you have to be damned sure that’s what you’re witnessing. People who are unfamiliar with police work don’t always understand what’s happening. If you interfere with police who are apprehending a suspect, you could be charged with a felony.
If you are sure and draw your weapon to intervene, you’re facing down multiple armed police officers with your one little pew pew. How are you going to assist anyone when you’re dead? What crime will those officers be convicted of if you drew first?
Finally, remember that only riot police are issued rubber bullets. Police on patrol, as well as Soldiers, are issued bullets that don’t bounce off people. If you really think they’re up to no good, what would make you assume they won’t put some holes in you, too?
Bottom line: don’t point your pistol at a police officer or a Soldier. Even if you’re in the right, you’ll lose. Take pictures or video if you can. As my grandfather taught me, you can file the report later if you survive.
I agree with @Ouade5. If you pull your weapon on an officer all the officers there will return the favor, and a police officer won’t just give you a tap or two. Unless things have changed and dead men can suddenly tell tales, you just died for .
If saving a victim’s life from police torture is worth your own, with the possibility of being wrong on the circumstances, and you still want to be the sheepdog, then yes, feel free to intervene by detaining or shooting the perceived offender, to protect someone else’s life.
Unless it’s me or one of my family being wronged, it’s not for me. Sorry.
While the Second Amendment has been held to extend to self defense, the Supreme Court has not yet spoken on whether that right applies outside the home. Both Heller and McDonald spoke only to the right to bear arms in self defense in the home.
State laws determine what use of force can be used in self defense and in defense of others. You would need to look at your particular laws with respect to what your state allows.
Assuming the law gave an absolute right to act, you need to look at the practicality of doing so. If, as in the Floyd incident, you shot at Chauvin, you would likely be looking down the barrels of the other three officers. Likewise, shooting at the police or Guard as a protester would almost certainly draw fire on yourself, potentially injuring or killing you or those around you. It would also depend on what you mean by heavy handed. Your use of force has to be reasonable. The use of deadly force is only authorized if you are in fear of serious physical injury or death. If you act and you are wrong, you will be prosecuted and will likely be sent to prison.
How do you know the apprehension is 100% illegal?
A jury might see you as innocent, however, they might not. And we’re talking years and a lot of money to get to the point where a jury is even considering the question of your innocence.
I might no know but what if someone walking by knows and ex cop perhaps
So basically the 2A is old and outdated We are not allowed to defend ourselves against the government except in very specific cases like in Houston were the EMT was killed.
Exactly. I always go back to Massad Ayoob’s example of showing you don’t really know what’s going on: You come across a man wrestling a woman on the ground and she is screaming rape. You draw on him. It turns out he is a vice cop trying to arrest a prostitute and she is screaming rape, because that is what actually happens. You have now assaulted a police officer, interfered with an arrest, etc. because you didn’t have all the information. You blew it on the “to the innocent” part of the justification for use of lethal force.
If we step back from the racial component, as I understand it Mr. Floyd was being apprehended for a minor crime. He resisted getting into the patrol car because of claustrophobia. What was explained to me many years ago was that police are permitted to use any level of force (shy of lethal force) to get you to comply with their instructions. Mr. Floyd failed to comply with Chauvin’s instructions to get in the patrol car, and Chauvin escalated the force level attempting to gain compliance until he used a technique that was ultimately lethal. So now you, Mr. Good Citizen, come across the scene at some point and see Chauvin with his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck and assume that it is an illegal apprehension and that you will intervene? The only problem is that you have no idea if you are in the legal portion of the arrest cycle or the portion where it has crossed into a crime. Indeed if Mr. Floyd had not died then the crime was a potential police brutality charge, something that Chauvin sadly was apparently very familiar with. You as Mr. Good Citizen could have supported Mr. Floyd in pressing a police brutality case as a witness, or with financial support. But to directly intervene you would have had to know when Chauvin’s right to use force to compel compliance crossed into clearly criminal territory. It might be pretty easy to see in hindsight, but not in the heat of the moment.
And now, because I’d be remiss in ignoring the racial component, I will add it back in. Everything is the same in the example right up until Mr. Floyd refuses to get in the patrol car saying he is claustrophobic. If Mr. Floyd is White does Chauvin take a different approach? Call for a larger vehicle? Call for an ambulance? Etc. But because Mr. Floyd is Black, Chauvin chooses to escalate force to gain compliance. That’s the hypothesis, right? Sorry, I don’t really want to debate that all here. I didn’t want to ignore it either.
Bottom line is that you will almost never have enough information at your disposal to really know if a police officer is doing something illegal to a third-party that could justify your interfering with their actions in real time. You do have the ability to file a complaint, or support someone elses, after the fact.
Even then they’ll try to charge you with attempted murder of a police officer for defending yourself. And they’d still clear themselves of all wrong doing anyway
57 officers resigned IN SUPPORT of the 2 officers who shoved a 75 year old man causing him to fracture his skull and start bleeding from his ears… The resigned not because of the needless violence, but in support of the 2 officers who needlessly shoved the old man were suspended… Not fired and charged like they should have been but suspended… If that’s not what a gang does, supporting each other after having done something horrible, than I guess I need to watch some Hells Angels, Pagans, Bloods, Latin King’s, and Crips videos. Cause they stand in solidarity after doing ■■■■ like that too. Actually now that I think of it, I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen any of those gangs shove a 75 year old man like that and get away with it.
Yes the bad cops are gangs with badges and they are no better than ANY of those gangs.
This is not said by me in anger, just making my point known. You can Google the article and see it covered by any news agency of your choice. They all say the same thing.
We are going to see a lot of police resigning. They are fed up too. Several officers killed by mobs in the last week, one in Vegas on life support and hundreds injured in the riots ranging from critical condition to minor. This is not an excuse, but the police are angry too and many are obviously at their breaking point.
Let us just agree to disagree sir. I am sure I could get on the internet and find way more examples of horrific gang crime than police brutality.
Until the Police start slinging drugs and killing each other in turf wars, this gang label of yours seems a bit contrived. The cops dont do blood-in, blood-out either. They dont rob peoples houses. They dont kill kids by accident during drive-by shootings. Gangs dont have Internal Affairs Departments.
I am quite sure many 75 + year old people have been beaten and robbed or killed by gang members; or by junkies needing money to buy drugs sold by gang members.
A whole bunch of police die in this country every year protecting us. Are there bad cops? Sure there are. A Gang? Gangs of bad cops?
Just let us agree to disagree please. You need not waste your time trying to convince me you are right about this gang business. I am very angry about the demonization of our police. I am convinced that such talk can lead to very, very bad outcomes for us all. Things that insulated, spoiled so-called citizens cant begin to imagine. I can, I have seen places with little or no police protection.
I really dont want to discuss this further.
I hope not, but I couldn’t blame them if they did. Every night, they go out and follow the mayor’s orders. They watch as looters destroy businesses, and the mayor blames them. They protect key infrastructure, and the mayor blames them. They enforce the mayor’s curfew, and the mayor blames them. They protect protesters, who try very hard to get them top drop their guard. At night, rioters throw bricks and explosives at them, and the press blames them. White police are called racists. Black police are called much worse. They are paid little, but told that they caused the problem, and their families have been targeted online.
What job is worth that?
Understood and I will respect your opinion. Moving forward I hope you are staying safe during these troubling times. I hold no grudge towards you or anyone else during this discussion. I will agree to disagree on this topic.
Thank you sir. Same sentiments to you.
You might want to watch the Rachel Maddow interview on CNN with the Mayor of Buffalo. That area had been ordered cleared and the man who got shoved, he crossed the line to approach the EMERGENCY response team to argue, he was shoved and then he tripped. EMT response was approximately 12 seconds.
I think Rachel Maddow is pretty far to the left. Is it bad optics. Yes. But you also follow the instructions given to you by LEO. That unit followed it’s training by the letter. They didn’t stop to help because EMT’s were literally seconds behind them.
I get it @BubbaBear917, you got a big mad on at the police. But there are a million police in the U.S. I guess you are missing all the acts of compassion that other police are doing.
I get it, everybody in America gets it, change needs to come in some ways to the police. But there are police officers getting hurt out there to, just trying to help.
I went today and bought dinner and dessert for my towns entire police department today because they are pulling double shifts right now trying to keep us safe.
Again, there are officers who need to be stood down due to abuse of power. I have been the direct victim of abuse of power by a police officer, as in I spent a week in the hospital. But that doesn’t mean ALL police officers are responsible for what that one officer did. Just as nationwide all police officers are not responsible for the few bad apples.
Also your police officers are gang members strawman argument is ludicrous.
Called it. Another autopsy report was released saying he had Covid 19
Every headline I’ve seen says the police shoved the man to the ground. The stories say the police beat down an elderly gentleman for no reason and then stepped over him as he lay bleeding on the ground.
In the video, you see the police moving towards an objective and a man in their way. They push him back (not down) and continue to their objective, which you can later see is a crowd of protesters. The man trips over his own feet, hits his head, and bleeds. The 3rd officer immediately radios this in. The police do indeed walk past as they continue towards their objective, but that’s because they’re the line and can’t stop. Incidents like this are always handled by those behind the line.
My intention is not to argue, but I believe the press and the politicians have misrepresented the incident, and the courts may reach a conclusion that surprises some people. If anyone here is shocked by this, I have a river in Egypt for sale…
I think this is all good stuff to talk about - that is the problem right - nobody talking/ listening ?
I think these are all valid issues in all directions / People Frustrated / Police Frustrated , Gov Frustrated - we Frustrated (lol) / disagree - agree whatever - we can all come to a common ground - United !!!