Really now, females cannot handle firearms like the boys do, are you shitting me?
Physical size and strength are relevant to running a pump shotgun, especially defensive rounds out of a pump shotgun that is rarely [if ever] trained with.
For a woman who doesn’t shoot or train with it, a pump shotgun is not the best fit…especially next to a pistol they do keep up with
I always say, “if you ever have to go there,” handle the situation righteously.“” This is NOT play time. If you ever want to know what I mean by "righteously, " I’ll tell you; you need only ask. But don’t be surprised by my explanation, because it’s not what many would think it would be.
A: she’s a gunner,…
B: she’s an absolute smoke show!
I come from a much more antiquated mindset (sword and shield)
Yet even then women were never to be underestimated on the battlefield!
And I, in my modern reenactment fighting have had my ass HANDED to me by much smaller female opponents!
I have an almost word-for-word conversation with my wife.
Pepper spray is a good less than lethal weapon but it may not stop a serious threat. Depending on how strong your attacker is it may just piss him off. But if you had a police baton then you could do some real damage.
That’s exactly the ‘problem’, so to speak, with a baton…“do some real damage”
A baton may, depending on the circumstances and jurisdiction, be considered lethal force. As in, force likely or intended to cause serious bodily harm. Even police officers with professional training on batons, it’s generally lethal force if the strike is to the head, neck, or spine. And let me tell you, in the potentially chaotic situation of defending yourself at bad breath distance, there is a lot of movement, if you aren’t pretty seriously trained you might just hit a head, neck, or spine even if you didn’t intend to. Also, some jurisdictions may consider breaking someone’s bones to be lethal force…even if it’s just their forearm
That’s mostly why I don’t carry a baton, it risks being lethal force. For lethal force, that’s why I have a firearm.
For less than lethal force, I have pepper spray. It won’t “do some real damage” and that’s exactly why I have it slotted where I do.
Pepper spray also works beyond arms reach where a baton doesn’t, and pepper spray does not rely on physical size/speed/power/etc of the wielder (similar to how a properly selected firearm doesn’t really require those things either). But a baton, your physical capabilities matter much more and for a lot of violent crime victims, they are at a disadvantage there vs the attacker
Police also use batons for things private citizens generally don’t, like breaking windows to gain access, manipulating joints/limbs to get people’s hands out from under them to cuff, pushing doors open without touching them or exposing their arm, all kinds of things other than hitting people. And they also probably have pepper spray on them as well as the firearm and baton, and probably a taser too. Just sayin’
I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.
I agree, the baton can be considered lethal force, which is why you have to be careful not to strike the head, neck, or spine with it. It’s a common weapon for martial arts experts too and not just police officers and you can use it for less than lethal methods if you strike areas that damage but don’t kill. Don’t get me wrong pepper spray is good too and I carry it daily with my stun gun flashlight, and my Glock and 4 spare magazines, but it’s best to use it and then try to make an escape. It’s for less than lethal encounters such as being up against an angry drunk and I also have a Taser but I don’t carry the Taser half the time. The reason I don’t carry my Taser is because if I need my pistol to stop the threat then the prosecutor might ask me why I didn’t just Taser my attacker instead of shooting him. Then I would be in a bind. My best answer in preparation to defend myself is that a Taser is not designed to stop a deadly threat and it’s not. I did my master’s in Criminal Justice thesis on Tasers for police and they’re more of a restraint weapon. Officers have tried pepper spraying, Tasering, and using their batons on criminals who are high on drugs and have a serious adrenaline rush as a result and said officers haven’t been able to stop the attackers. You may need as many as 15 rounds from a pistol to stop 1 threat. The bottom line is pepper spray may stop a threat or it may not it all depends but most of the time it’s good for less than lethal defense and a permit holder who carries a gun should also carry pepper spray as part of their EDC.
I’m willing to learn what youbhave to say. Lay it on me.
LOL. And there he is… “Righteously” I take it? Meaning, dispassionately and completely. This is not play time. If not, then “don’t go there.”
Yep, now I just need to get her to come out with me to the range and shoot it. Get that familiarity with it and be comfortable around it.
With all this talk about a baton being considered a lethal weapon, where do defensive walking canes fit in? I can see where baton could be considered premeditation to do bodily harm and a person must be trained to effectively use it. I am 79 years old and have considered getting a heavy oak defensive walking cane, more to use as a defensive weapon than use for a physical disability (though it would probably help my knee out a bit). And, carrying a cane would seem to be less controversial that a baton.
I’m not a lawyer and this is certainly not legal advice, check your local listings/state law where you will be, consider consulting an attorney.
I’d say a cane as having the same general risk as a baton, in that using it for a less-than-lethal force (normal force, whatever a state may call it) scenario runs the risk of causing serious harm or being considered lethal force, depending on how things go.
Not that I would think there is much worry of that if a 79 year old is attacked by a typical violent street criminal which tends to be a teen to twenties year old by the stats. Generally speaking.
Canes would seem to have some really nice things going for them. The reach increase can be noticeable and also the availability/access…it’s literally already in your hand. Maybe seek out a martial arts practitioner or similar and get some training in how to use it? A heavy oak cane can be formidable and versatile and you can generally have it pretty much everywhere
Also, welcome to the community!
It was clearly stated that @Nathan57 was referring to untrained females, not females in general, as in general, females are smaller and weaker. The same would be similarly true for untrained small, weaker men.
Yes, she’s a gunner. Exactly the point. She’s trained and practiced and experienced running guns.
I am referring to a female who is not.
Size and strength are relevant to running a pump action shotgun, more so than they are relevant to a lot of other firearms.
Females on average are smaller and weaker than men, so an untrained/unpracticed individual who is now trying to run a pump shotgun under life or death stress, and is likely smaller/weaker then many, just has another thing working against them.
No untrained and unpracticed person should rely on any firearm, but, it’s just that much worse when it’s a pump shotgun and it’s also that much worse when they are likely smaller/weaker and it’s a pump action shotgun.
Just speaking practically about defending yourself effectively.
I would personally recommend the woman who doesn’t train with that shotgun, use the pistol they are more confident and competent with instead.
Have you ever watched an untrained (on a shotgun) person try to run a pump gun under even shot-timer stress at the range?
Okay, would you suggest besides her hand gun that she is familair with and shoots well, maybe a semi-auto shotgun for HD?
I only ask that as it makes sense trying to pull the pump back to shoot, instead semi, just pull the trigger.
Again, I am only asking as she wanted something else besides her two handguns she has with her. She is afraid and wants more protection if a shotgun either pump or semi-auto isnt an idea what would one suggest?
Generally, a semi auto intermediate cartridge chambered rifle/carbine, like a typical 5.56 AR type rifle, is the best combination of effectiveness and ease of use. For everyone, even. Shorter, lighter, higher capacity, lower recoil, more inherently adjustable for ergonomic fit, just plain easier to use and more enjoyable to shoot.
IMO, good semi auto shotguns will cost more than a good AR type rifle (I may come across as a snob, but I generally don’t find the budget options to be ‘as good as’)
Even a semi auto shotgun still has a relatively low capacity and takes far more time and dexterity to reload, in addition to running dry far quicker. Most shotgun training and competitions are all about keeping the thing fed. Just get a semi auto rifle that holds 20-30 rounds and all of that difficulty plummets, in a major way. While also being shorter and lighter and lower recoiling etc.
Also a lot of ranges only allow buck/slugs, or even only slugs, for training at the range so ammo costs to practice live fire end up being a lot higher on the shotgun too.
If the entry cost of an AR type rifle is too much then I’d double down on the pistol and just do more training time and ammo expedinditure getting even better with the pistol.
Okay, I have an AR15 in 5.56, 22mag, and 22LR. I have had a semi-auto shotgun before as well…I had two 10 round magz…problem is they would jam all the time. It didnt matter what brand I used…3" shells…just didnt matter, so, I sold it.
I will have her practice with the AR15’s then, 22mag and 22LR…the 5.56 would be to much…imo. I say that as I have shot it in front of her before and she added plugs with her protective ear muffs.
I could have her shoot my Winchester lever rifle with 30-30…feel the recoil and loudness with that one…then do the shotgun, then the AR15 with 5.56/22mag/22LR…see which she prefers and likes better and can control the easiest.
Thugs wake up every morning with premeditated mayhem.
That’s the fight we’re up against. We are second-guessed but not criminals.
Keep in mind that, typically, the muzzle blast of a rifle is worse off to the sides than it is as the shooter. The pressure wave, especially with some of the brakes and comps out there, pushes it away like that. There is also a psychological aspect IME when it’s unexpected vs when you are doing it, no different than intentionally making the nails on chalkboard sound when you are the one making it, it bothers other people more (generally).
Yes I think good to do, have her shoot them back to back and I have a feeling that recoil difference and the weight etc of the guns will sell on the AR quickly.
And if not, double down on the pistol that seems to have been accepted already